I think the problem isn't that I'm offensive, it's that you're looking to be offended. I'm not looking for a fight, I'm looking for discussion. When I debate friends in real life people can get offended but they realize that we're just heated in discussion and we're friends after all of it.

Now, dogmatic is a strong word you applied to me. I never said I'd "always be an Atheist", I also never said "God definitely, 100%, does not exist" and I have never said "I will never become a Christian again." If I did, that'd be dogmatic. But you can not quote me, of all the posts I've made, saying any of those statements.

But the Christians on these forums like saying things like:

I am 100% positive that my God is there and that he has done everything for me, and that I can do anything through Christ.
The people didn't assume the others were evil. They knew, because God told them. And they did have the right, because God told them too. Call me and everyone evil all you want.

and that is dogmatic. It's they you should be preaching to.


When did you decide i was a christian?

To be honest, I don't know what religion you subscribe to and to be honest, I don't think you do either, judging from your posts:

I am a messianic jew
I trust my pastor, and when i have problems or questions i discuss them with him.
I would suggest talking to a pastor or someone about what happened to people who dont get the chance to find christ or that were around before him. Or PM me.
I consider myself non-religious, its cool to see OP shares my view.

Oh, and one more gem I found in your post history, I can tell (and I'm not being offensive, I'm being honest) that you seem to judge things without reading or understanding the context. I'm not calling you an idiot, I don't think you are, but I suggest you understand the things you read before you judge them. I mention this because you said in one post:

Yes, I've read the whole Quran. It was long and at times uninteresting, but i read it.

And then later said:

Islam teaches nothing but peace, the radicals are only a small minority and i dont judge any muslim i know based off of there actions.

Which, we both know, is completely false. Do you know what's in the Qu'ran? I could quote verse after verse (they're extremely easy to find) of intolerance and violence. As a matter of fact, apostates (people who leave Islam) are told to be killed:

Qur'an 4:88-89

Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers.

I think the problem isn't that I'm offensive, it's that you're looking to be offended. I'm not looking for a fight, I'm looking for discussion. When I debate friends in real life people can get offended but they realize that we're just heated in discussion and we're friends after all of it.

Now, dogmatic is a strong word you applied to me. I never said I'd "always be an Atheist", I also never said "God definitely, 100%, does not exist" and I have never said "I will never become a Christian again." If I did, that'd be dogmatic. But you can not quote me, of all the posts I've made, saying any of those statements.

But the Christians on these forums like saying things like:




and that is dogmatic. It's they you should be preaching to.




To be honest, I don't know what religion you subscribe to and to be honest, I don't think you do either, judging from your posts:






Oh, and one more gem I found in your post history, I can tell (and I'm not being offensive, I'm being honest) that you seem to judge things without reading or understanding the context. I'm not calling you an idiot, I don't think you are, but I suggest you understand the things you read before you judge them. I mention this because you said in one post:



And then later said:



Which, we both know, is completely false. Do you know what's in the Qu'ran? I could quote verse after verse (they're extremely easy to find) of intolerance and violence. As a matter of fact, apostates (people who leave Islam) are told to be killed:

Qur'an 4:88-89

Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers.
Looking to be offended? You compared my intellegence to a 2nd graders, how was i looking to be offended? The questions i was asking you is a common philosophical technique.
How much time did you waste looking through all my old posts just to make me look like a fool. I will be honest, I am a fool, and a sinner, and I don't have answers. But so what, it is after all, just a forum. But to go back to find all those old posts, can't people grow, change their views and mature? Really dude, thats just a little bit creepy that you took the time to search info on me, instead of just asking me. I don't subscribe to a religion, because religion is man made, faluable, problem causing. If you actually want to know who i am, i suggest taking the time to listen to me, rather than judging me from past, perhaps sometimes retarded posts i've made.

amen brother

you said it like i always have wanted

religion is man made, face it people. At least the Greeks (who if you were intelligent you'd know that the Bible copies every single myth made up by their culture. From Jesus Christ (Prometheus) to Adam and Eve (Pandora's Box) ) were practical enough to know that. Every Religion came from Greek mythology!!!!

whether you like to believe it or not religion is the root of all war

think about why 9/11 happened, think about Isreal right now, think about why the Romans conquered and absorbed so many other cultures, and think about the holy crusades...there are just too many examples

If a man wants to have homosexual relations with another man go for it, I for one find it disgusting and unnatural, but that's just one guys opinion.

Here's the only 2 mantras you should live by

Treat others as you would like to treated

and

To each his own

To everyone talking about this bible ****, who cares. If the bible said not to breath you guys would probably do listen.

How much time did you waste looking through all my old posts just to make me look like a fool.

About 2 minutes. You asked me "When did you decide i was a christian?" and I gave you proof, now you're complaining? Are you ever satisfied or are you always this miserable?


I will be honest, I am a fool, and a sinner, and I don't have answers. But so what, it is after all, just a forum. But to go back to find all those old posts, can't people grow, change their views and mature? Really dude, thats just a little bit creepy that you took the time to search info on me, instead of just asking me.

What's so creepy? Again, you asked for proof, I gave it to you. I searched "Jew" "pastor" "Christian" and the results came instantly...again, all to provide proof to your answer.

You get what you asked for...

I don't subscribe to a religion, because religion is man made, faluable, problem causing.

Well your past posts contradict that, you went from being a non-theist to a Jew to a Christian (apparently you had found Jesus in that post, please show us where you found him!) and now back to being a non-theist.

Either way, I don't care. Instead of trying to be a smartass and asking people for proof, come right out and tell us. You had the chance to avoid it but tried to outsmart other people...

If you actually want to know who i am, i suggest taking the time to listen to me, rather than judging me from past, perhaps sometimes retarded posts i've made.

To be honest, I don't want to know who you are nor do I care. I never asked for your religious beliefs (because again, I could care less) but you challenged me.

I judge people on these forums by their posts. Who knows, maybe in real life you'd be the coolest guy I'd know. I'm not known as a "debater" to my friends and family, I'm the complete opposite and like to make jokes and be funny. Do I debate? Sure...but the people don't whine nearly as much as they do here.

Now, if you're going to take the time to make another redundant post, at least take the time to answer the questions so we could back on topic. I don't want this thread locked.

Well, yes, of course!

Kill Homosexuals
Leviticus 20:13: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

And non-believers too, we can't forget about non-believers
Exodus 22:20: "Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed."

I don't know if I can speak on behalf of others on this forum, and I know that there is a delicate topic here, but i seriously dislike it when people like razz(no offense, you have some good points) take things out of context.

First the Leviticus verse: You have totally taken this out of context. This verse is written in HISTORICAL context. It is a record of God's laws through Moses to the Israelites after they had begun to establish their society. The verse is implying that homosexuality is WRONG in the eyes of God. This is verse 25 of the same context: "You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground-those which I have set apart as unclean for you." A chapter earlier, still in the same context, this is verse 27: Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip of the edges of your beard." I mean come one. Don't try to act like the reading of the law to the Israelites 1000's of years ago about their actions in their own culture apply to us today(except for the concepts of right and wrong). God is not telling us today to kill homosexuals on sight, what God is saying to the back then Israelites is their law for that day and age and for within their own culture.

Now for the Exodus one. This ones my favorite. Once again you take God's laws for the ancient Israeli culture within their own culture and try to say that God is speaking to us today. God is speaking about the social responsibility of the Israelis within their own culture at that time. ARG!

BTW: I know they werent in Israel yet, so just insert Hebrew or Jew for Israeli. I was too lazy to.

amen brother

you said it like i always have wanted

religion is man made, face it people. At least the Greeks (who if you were intelligent you'd know that the Bible copies every single myth made up by their culture. From Jesus Christ (Prometheus) to Adam and Eve (Pandora's Box) ) were practical enough to know that. Every Religion came from Greek mythology!!!!

whether you like to believe it or not religion is the root of all war

think about why 9/11 happened, think about Isreal right now, think about why the Romans conquered and absorbed so many other cultures, and think about the holy crusades...there are just too many examples

If a man wants to have homosexual relations with another man go for it, I for one find it disgusting and unnatural, but that's just one guys opinion.

Here's the only 2 mantras you should live by

Treat others as you would like to treated

and

To each his own

Religion is not man made. If you think so, prove it.

The only reason religion would be such a huge conflict is if it actually existed. If there was no thing as religion(not necessary religion, christianity) then the world would not exist. Humans have always had war. You say that all wars are involving religion. What do you think the world would be like without religion? That's right, you cant. The world would not be some paradise to live with everyone being peaceful. The world would not even be in being! And if I take it from your point of view to say that religion is not true, then what do you actually think that the world would be like without it? People would have just found something else to fight about anyway.

I'm having a hard time expressing my argument on this one lol. Hopefuly you get what I'm saying.

^If religion isnt man-made, please explain to us how it got here.

And explain how the earth wouldnt even be here if we hadnt thought of religion.

^If religion isnt man-made, please explain to us how it got here.

And explain how the earth wouldnt even be here if we hadnt thought of religion.

It got here because its always existed in the fact that God created the world and all of us in it.

Now you arent even taking a look from my point of vew. Christianity, which I believe, is not techincally a religion. Religion is man's search for God. Christianity is God's search for the hearts of men. We thought of RELIGION. We didn't think of the TRUTH

First the Leviticus verse: You have totally taken this out of context. This verse is written in HISTORICAL context. It is a record of God's laws through Moses to the Israelites after they had begun to establish their society. The verse is implying that homosexuality is WRONG in the eyes of God.

Why is it every verse that preaches love is always 'in context' ? Anyways, that's besides the point.

The question is not whether it's in the historical context or not, it's proof that God does not approve of homosexuals and felt it was only right to consider it an abomination. Also, your post was contradictory, if it was just based on historical context then why did you say it implies that homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God? Isn't it just stating what happened? Or is it more than that? That was my point from the beginning.

Now for the Exodus one. This ones my favorite. Once again you take God's laws for the ancient Israeli culture within their own culture and try to say that God is speaking to us today. God is speaking about the social responsibility of the Israelis within their own culture at that time. ARG!

The culture was extremely irresponsible and coincidentally these are God's chosen people? So essentially, the God in which you believe, approves that the men are above women. It doesn't say anything about shunning a man's right to preach in Church, only that the 'women' must be silent.

And who cares if it was 1000's of years ago? What? Women weren't equal back then? Is that what you're implying?

Religion is not man made. If you think so, prove it.

Wow...Once again, this is like the 20th Christian on this forums using the "PROVE IT WASN'T" fallacy. The onus is on you to prove that it wasn't from God.


Prove to me that SpongeBob SquarePants does not live in a pineapple under the sea.

Humans have always had war. You say that all wars are involving religion. What do you think the world would be like without religion? That's right, you cant.

I can!

No 9/11, no crusades, no burning of suspected witches, no suicide bombers, no Israeli-Arab conflicts, etc etc.

D*mn, looks pretty good to me....

People would have just found something else to fight about anyway.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. - Steven Weinberg

i don't have a problem with some gays if they act chill, i just don't like the ones who act all girly and **** like that

Y'know razz. I could quote each of your paragraphs and think of some witty comeback like you like to do, but I'm just sick of you. At least to christians it is a central duty to try to help others to believe in Jesus. All you want to do is the opposite. Why, what are your motives? And as to your spongebob thing, yes, I know you have incredibly detailed knowledge of childrens television, but the thing is-you cant prove that he doesnt exist either. Explain to me why the world has all of nature, and all of the things we consider good and beautiful. Try to explain to me how all of that could happen without a grand creator. I'll read your posts from now on, but I'm sick of trying to reason with someone who's sole goal on these forums is to try to turn people from the faith.

i don't have a problem with some gays if they act chill, i just don't like the ones who act all girly and **** like that

Why? You have a problem with them becouse they don't act manly.

Ok that makes a whole lot of sense . . like a tribe of gay, girly Eskimos in the desert.


Wow...Once again, this is like the 20th Christian on this forums using the "PROVE IT WASN'T" fallacy. The onus is on you to prove that it wasn't from God.


Prove to me that SpongeBob SquarePants does not live in a pineapple under the sea.

[/B]

Thats fantastic!!! + rep

It got here because its always existed in the fact that God created the world and all of us in it.

Now you arent even taking a look from my point of vew. Christianity, which I believe, is not techincally a religion. Religion is man's search for God. Christianity is God's search for the hearts of men. We thought of RELIGION. We didn't think of the TRUTH
I LOVE how you completley contradicted yourself in that post "We didnt think of religion! it's always been here! except for the fact that we thought of it."

Oh, and your post towards razz made me lol. Your telling him to stop trying to get people to change and go away from the faith, but isnt the main goal of christians to change people and turn them to the faith? He's doing the exact same thing as you, just from a different perspective. Yes, razz can be offensive to christians. Because christians dnot want to hear people preach non-christianity. But how the hell do you think non-christians feel when christians walk up to us to "Talk to us about our faith" a.k.a read us a bunch of scripture and tell us we will burn for eternity if we dont let them hit us in the head with a bible, and immediatley convert?

I LOVE how you completley contradicted yourself in that post "We didnt think of religion! it's always been here! except for the fact that we thought of it."

Oh, and your post towards razz made me lol. Your telling him to stop trying to get people to change and go away from the faith, but isnt the main goal of christians to change people and turn them to the faith? He's doing the exact same thing as you, just from a different perspective. Yes, razz can be offensive to christians. Because christians dnot want to hear people preach non-christianity. But how the hell do you think non-christians feel when christians walk up to us to "Talk to us about our faith" a.k.a read us a bunch of scripture and tell us we will burn for eternity if we dont let them hit us in the head with a bible, and immediatley convert?

Like I said, I'm tired of debating with you people. Sorry about the contradiction. I get mixed up in the posts between religion and christianity srry lol. Christians are preaching because they want to save you. Razz is doing it to make sure we dont. I've just given up on people here. Just skate and have fun. I can't change you anyway if you dont want to....

Like I said, I'm tired of debating with you people. Sorry about the contradiction. I get mixed up in the posts between religion and christianity srry lol. Christians are preaching because they want to save you. Razz is doing it to make sure we dont. I've just given up on people here. Just skate and have fun. I can't change you anyway if you dont want to....

Very diplomatic mate, well said. I find it funny how people get all pissy fighting on the net when it's the easiest thing in the world to just close the site and go skate.

Seriously, it's kinda sad. If people don't like what someone says they should leave.

Christians are preaching because they want to save you. Razz is doing it to make sure we dont. I've just given up on people here.

I was going to respond to this but I'm going to make a thread on the subject because I could honestly write pages on what's wrong with that statement.

Have fun.

im not trying to be a D**K but i personaly dont like gays or homosexuals i think it's wrong and you cont be mad i'm intitled to my own opinion you told me to speek so i spoke.

^Thank you for a pointless, stupid, off topic post.

im not trying to be a D**K but i personaly dont like gays or homosexuals i think it's wrong and you cont be mad i'm intitled to my own opinion you told me to speek so i spoke.
Care to explain why?

You are allowed to have your own opinion all you want. But when it leads to the denial of rights of people with out legal basis, that when there is a problem. Its also a problem when it leads to violence.

Christians are preaching because they want to save you..

And thats what p*sses non-christians off, we dont want to be saved.

^Thank you for a pointless, stupid, off topic post.

thanks for the neg rep Fight ;)

It was a serious question maybe not phrased so well

I really want to know

cause when i see on TV (I think it was Dateline) the homosexual couples talk about their sexual preference

They talk about how they are born this way

Do you think it's true or do you think something happened during their life that made them either hate women, or prefer men for sexual gratification?

I gave you negitive rep for two reasons: Your post was increadably massoganistic, and homophobic. It says that my being queer is not a real thing, and I am lying to myself about not being attracted to women.

Why did you give me negitive rep?


Do you think it's true or do you think something happened during their life that made them either hate women, or prefer men for sexual gratification?
Being a homosexual man doesn't mean you hate women. Just like being a heterosexual man does not mean you hate men. Sexual attraction and liking are totally seperate. Personal I have no idea if it is something you are naturally born with, a result of enviroment, or a pure and simple choice. But that does not matter at all. The end result is people are homosexual, and are still people. So they deserve the same rights as every one else.

You are allowed to have your own opinion all you want. But when it leads to the denial of rights of people with out legal basis, that when there is a problem. Its also a problem when it leads to violence.

this is why i disagree, you neg repped me for voicing my opinion. I did not hurt anyone in the process. You contradict your self.

Once again I am sorry for my poor choice of how I presented my statement. It was quite crude.

p.s. I thought queer was a word the gay community frowned upon, or is it like the N word only those included may use it?

I did not neg you for your opinion, I negged you for your masagony.

And queer is tricky word. If some one identifies as Queer(as I do) it is acceptable to use it, but if you do not know for 100% certainty you should not use the word. It is still often used as an insult, so its a very trick word to use. I use it because I cannot clearly define my sexuality or gender identity, and queer is the most widespread word for that identity(or lack of identity).

Do you think it's true or do you think something happened during their life that made them either hate women, or prefer men for sexual gratification?
Most homosexuals are born like that. Some had things happen in their life, some change over time, and some just choose it to be different. But MOST are born like that, and can do nothing about it.

For all of you that think homosexuality is a choice, when did you choose to be straight?

Trickeyboarder, one could simply argue that heterosexuality is learned. For it is taught and preached.

Trickeyboarder, one could simply argue that heterosexuality is learned. For it is taught and preached.
but i don't think "i should have the hots for her, so i will" i just do

Yes, however when your want to speak English, you don't think about the task of speaking, you simply speak.

Ah, the power of learning.

but i don't think "i should have the hots for her, so i will" i just do
The very simple comeback for this is actually quite hard to explain in text, so take this loosely. You dont think conciously "i should have the hots for her, so i will", because you've been taught your whole life to like women and such. Just like how when your talking to sombody, you dont think about what your going to say next, you just say it. Of course in the back of your mind you have to think about it, but it never comes across your concious mind.

Do you get what i'm trying to say? I'm not good at explaining.

Yes, however when your want to speak English, you don't think about the task of speaking, you simply speak.

Ah, the power of learning.
I think your logic is flawed. I don't ever remember being taught to like girls. To learn how to speak English, I took English classes, and learned through my parents. I don't recall ever taking a class that taught me how to be straight, or my parents ever mentioning it. And honestly, i really don't think i have the ability to be gay. I really can't see myself choosing to be gay, so how can it be a choice?

Yes, however when your want to speak English, you don't think about the task of speaking, you simply speak.

Ah, the power of learning.


so teach yourself to be gay and prove it.

Why does it matter if you are born homosexual or learn to do it?

i beleive you could be born homosexual
i mean when your a baby your a clean sheet and empty tablet
so life experiences or things that happen to you may affect many many things
possibly your sexual orientation

but i personally no a couple gay men and theyre cool and not like that annoying over the top guy from Will and Grace

and i dont see why guys hate gays
i mean it just means more women for them

When you think about it, it's kind of odd that one sexuality is normal when another is weird.

Do you reckon there is a reason?

There's been a handfull of society's throughout history that have accepted Homosexual sex as equal or even more highly regarded than Hetero sex, (Sparta and other Greek civilisations in particular.)

Right now there is a massive heterosexual influence right?

When did it all begin?

Was it JUST the Bible that made us think this way?

Are decades of hate all from those few minor verses in the Bible?

It's some queer junk if you think about it. :)

For any Christians out there who still want to answer this question that hasn't been answered yet, I'd appreciate it.

If the Bible had said that heterosexuality was a sin...would you change your sexual orientation and become homosexual just to suit the Bible?

This question goes to every other Christian here as well, please tell me, would you change your sexual orientation if the Bible said it was so?

If the majority of society was homosexual and called your heterosexuality a choice, how would you respond?

Thank you kindly...

I think your logic is flawed. I don't ever remember being taught to like girls. To learn how to speak English, I took English classes, and learned through my parents. I don't recall ever taking a class that taught me how to be straight, or my parents ever mentioning it. And honestly, i really don't think i have the ability to be gay. I really can't see myself choosing to be gay, so how can it be a choice?
One could simply say that your mind was trained to like girls subliminally after seeing so much heterosexual influence in your life. With everything you hear, see on tv, see in real life, over time your mind was trained to like the opposite sex.

But this logic is also flawed, because if that was true then there wouldnt be homosexuals, would there?? Maybe gays have a mental block and they couldnt learn it? Haha. who knows.

For all of you that think homosexuality is a choice, when did you choose to be straight?

this is a good point.

girls are insane. id much rather be gay :icon_peac

:icon_wink

but unfortunately, am not.

roflpost.

^Haha, i once heard a stand up comedian say: "You know, if it wasn't for sex, I'd be gay...because then you're just hanging out with your friends."

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5629/l322ce9b824e4febb10a4d5bo9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

To the question above^, that Razz keeps asking. I'd have to say, no, I probably wouldnt be gay if I was told to be gay by the bible. I have no problem with gays, and you cant really help what gender you like. So, if I like girls, Im going to like girls, I cant just switch and say.. well ok, Ill like guys just for the bible. God wants us to do what make us happy too. I know that the only way you can get into heaven is faith, so, if I had my faith, I think thats all Id need. So to answer your question, no, I wouldnt change for the bible, God would accept my choice, and love me for me. Hope I answered your question?

To the question above^, that Razz keeps asking. I'd have to say, no, I probably wouldnt be gay if I was told to be gay by the bible. I have no problem with gays, and you cant really help what gender you like. So, if I like girls, Im going to like girls, I cant just switch and say.. well ok, Ill like guys just for the bible. God wants us to do what make us happy too. I know that the only way you can get into heaven is faith, so, if I had my faith, I think thats all Id need. So to answer your question, no, I wouldnt change for the bible, God would accept my choice, and love me for me. Hope I answered your question?

Exactly the kind of answer I wanted, you wouldn't, couldn't, and most of all shouldn't change simply because a book frowns upon it.

So from now on, whenever you hear a Christian condemn homosexuality you'll stand up to them and tell them what they're doing is wrong, judgmental, and hypocritical.

Um, Razz, what exactly makes you think I dont already stand up for people who have a different sexual orientation, or race, or whatever? I always have. I was taught in church to accept people for who they are. So, I always have.

Um, Razz, what exactly makes you think I dont already stand up for people who have a different sexual orientation, or race, or whatever? I always have. I was taught in church to accept people for who they are. So, I always have.

That's what I wanted to hear.

You're going against the Bible because of your moral respect for a person and not hating them because a fairy tale tells you to.

^What? Maybe the old covenant preached distain for others. But the new covenant (B'rit Chadasha) doesn't teach anyone to hate anyone.

^Correct. But, many christians will still be against homosexuals because the old covenant tells them too.

^What? Maybe the old covenant preached distain for others. But the new covenant (B'rit Chadasha) doesn't teach anyone to hate anyone.

I have a point to these things...

Take two different men. One man killed a person in the year 1965 because he felt it was the 'right' thing to do. Now, the man has been released from prison and is living his life again.

Now, take another man who kills a person in the year 2005, he is now spending his time in jail for murder. Would you classify one man as evil as the other? Let's go even further and assume the man who committed murder in 1965 was a Psychic, we'll just say he was omniscient, should that man still be classified as a murderer for what he's one?

Should he still be considered evil for KNOWING what he's done was not 'right' and would change himself for the better in the future?

If he says he will change himself for the better, then, no, he is not evil. As long as he is willing to change, and willing to become a better person, then he is not evil. People all do stupid things, some more stupid then others, but as long as they can become a better person and not do it again, then they are not evil. And again, like everyone said, that was the old covenant. Im not going against the bible or God, because as any real christian would know, God treats us all as equals, he sees no one man better then the other, we are all the same in his eyes. You keep on and on showing me that you dont know anything about my religion, you can read the bible and know everything in it, but you still dont really know what my religion is, you still dont understand, and probably never will.

what it really comes down to is if u believe in equality.

I have a point to these things...

Take two different men. One man killed a person in the year 1965 because he felt it was the 'right' thing to do. Now, the man has been released from prison and is living his life again.

Now, take another man who kills a person in the year 2005, he is now spending his time in jail for murder. Would you classify one man as evil as the other? Let's go even further and assume the man who committed murder in 1965 was a Psychic, we'll just say he was omniscient, should that man still be classified as a murderer for what he's one?

Should he still be considered evil for KNOWING what he's done was not 'right' and would change himself for the better in the future?
Well, that really depends on what one believes evil is.
Let's assume evil means something that delibratly causes pain (emotional/physica) to another. Would that man still be evil? Yes, he is a man. I am evil too, but I have never killed anyone, but just like your hypothetical man I also strive to better myself in the future.
But if you're analogy is comparing the murderer from 1965 to G-d then I don't think that really works. Because you see, with out an absolute good, how can there be evil?

I don't see why Homosexuality should have ANYTHING to do with religion.
If the Christians get all pissy, then let them cry their woes away, but if someone's gay, they're still a person. So it's the same world they live in, the same rights they have, and the same responsibility to the community.

'Nuff said.

If he says he will change himself for the better, then, no, he is not evil.

If he were to have killed your mother, wife, child, etc then I PROMISE you wouldn't be saying the same thing.

God treats us all as equals, he sees no one man better then the other, we are all the same in his eyes.

You do realize that he had "chosen" people, right?

You keep on and on showing me that you dont know anything about my religion, you can read the bible and know everything in it, but you still dont really know what my religion is, you still dont understand, and probably never will.

First of all, it's not YOUR religion...do you understand? You don't own the rights to speak on it. I was a Christian too, and just because I left it that absolutely has no merit on my understanding of it. It's when I started to understand it more and more that I decided to leave.

Give me 5 minutes in the chat room and I'll make you look like a complete dunce on Christianity, I'll prove to you how much you "truly" understand...

Well, that really depends on what one believes evil is.
Let's assume evil means something that delibratly causes pain (emotional/physica) to another. Would that man still be evil? Yes, he is a man. I am evil too, but I have never killed anyone, but just like your hypothetical man I also strive to better myself in the future.
But if you're analogy is comparing the murderer from 1965 to G-d then I don't think that really works. Because you see, with out an absolute good, how can there be evil?

Let's assume that there was no Bible or scripture that existed, and you were president of the United States, which laws would you keep and why?

I have a point to this....

So, you've read the whole bible? But, you still show me that you dont understand. Yes, he did have chosen people, but he does not treat atheists different then christians, or murderers different then people who live a non sinful life. You may be able to make me look like a dunce on some parts of the bible, but you still dont understand my religion. The bible is not the only part of christianity, there are many more parts in which I doubt you understand. I seriously doubt that you read the bible with an open mind. It seems to me you went into reading the bible with a mind set like "Im just going to look for the bad parts and not care about the rest."
I believe it is my religion, seeing as how I chose it. No, I dont own it, but it is MY chosen religion.

^No, he dosent treat murderers different than non-sinful people. Ya know, because the whole "hell" thing has NOTHING to do with who you are.

... Yes, he did have chosen people, but he does not treat atheists different then christians ...

Apart from the fact that because Atheists aren't 'worthy', we'll be burning in Hell, right?

So, you've read the whole bible? But, you still show me that you dont understand. Yes, he did have chosen people, but he does not treat atheists different then christians, or murderers different then people who live a non sinful life. You may be able to make me look like a dunce on some parts of the bible, but you still dont understand my religion. The bible is not the only part of christianity, there are many more parts in which I doubt you understand. I seriously doubt that you read the bible with an open mind. It seems to me you went into reading the bible with a mind set like "Im just going to look for the bad parts and not care about the rest."
I believe it is my religion, seeing as how I chose it. No, I dont own it, but it is MY chosen religion.

Here's what you're not understanding, you assume because I'm no longer a Christian that I really never understood it. I did read the Bible, but not as an Atheist, as a Christian. I read it without ever questioning it. I was active in my Church, I loved religion, if I hated the topic of religion I wouldn't have debated it.

But there came a time when I decided I was going to have the courage to question it. You, on the other hand, are so drowned in religious dogma that you refuse to question it. Living your life with that mind set of "there's no way you can change my beliefs" will get you nowhere in life.

Yes, he did have chosen people, but he does not treat atheists different then christians

Yet he sends one group to hell while sends the other to paradise? Doesn't sound so fair to me.

Honestly, I don't know what else to say to you. Here's a question I have for you: Is there anything whatesoever that could possibly change your religious views? Is there anything anyone could present that could make you leave Christianity.

* Side note: Keep in mind, I don't give a rat's ass if you stay Christian or not. It's simply a question out of curiosity *

I guess something could change my mind, but my faith in God is very powerful, and I really dont see that changing. If you'd like to try though, then go ahead. I will keep an open mind about what you say, but I still doubt that I will quit believing. How do you know that I havent questioned my religion? There was a time last year that I was so far away from God that I dont even know if I believed any more. I believed, but.. I questioned it so much. I dont question it any more, no, but thats not to say I never have. You may have known a lot of christianity at one time, sure. But, Im just taking stuff from some of the stuff you have said and making my conclusions from that. Maybe Im wrong. Again, Ill ask this question, If you were the christian God ( The God I have chosen ) then would you let people into a paradise if they did not accept you, after all you have done for them, and after all you have given them; they act as though you arent there, and you state clearly that if they dont they will go to hell? The thing is, he ( not himself, but the bible ) tells us that if we dont accept him, we will go to hell. He warns you about it, but you still dont believe. God gave us free will so we could choose, and thats exactly why he doesnt just come down and say, " Whats up guys, Im the Lord!" Because if he did, would he really be giving you a choice? I dont know, I dont know if you'll ever understand. Of course I wish you would, I wish you would accept him, and yes, I do see why you might not. But, yea, I dont know. Anyways, Im out for now, Keep posting, for some reason Ive been having fun debating with you lately. haha.

^Well, if I were God, i wouldnt really give a rats ass if i was being THAT vague. "I'm going to tell some guys to write some stuff down, and then never show myself again until the world ends, and if they dont beleive me they'll burn in hell!" just dosent make sense to me.

All we have, is a book. A book written by MAN. I could write down that the Fairy Princess's pink pony told me to click my heels three times and then the frog would turn into a perfectly-roasted elephant. For all we know, the stuff in the bible is as untrue as that.

There was a time last year that I was so far away from God that I dont even know if I believed any more. I believed, but.. I questioned it so much. I dont question it any more, no, but thats not to say I never have.

There's a popular saying that once said:
"Questioning your faith is the best way to strengthen it"

It's like a difficult math problem at school. The more you ask, the more you know. If you're afraid of drifting away from your faith because of simply questioning it, then how much faith do you really have?

The biggest reason I questioned my faith was because I was sure it had to be true; and I guess I ended up taking another path.

If you were the christian God ( The God I have chosen ) then would you let people into a paradise if they did not accept you, after all you have done for them, and after all you have given them; they act as though you arent there, and you state clearly that if they dont they will go to hell?

No, I would not. If people said "God, I am not going to accept you or believe in you" then as a creator I would probably do what your God is doing.

~ But here's the catch ~

Is it really God giving us this choice? That's my question and a question all Atheists would like to know. Who is REALLY BEHIND THIS CHOICE OF ETERNAL PARADISE?

Now zero, I know you're a Christian and are positive that it's God; but look at it from an Atheist's perspective. What would make an Atheist (like myself) believe in your God (Yahweh) as opposed to another God (Allah, Krishna, Zeus, etc). What is it about your God that stands above everyone else.

Remember, it's all about faith isn't it? Which God should someone have faith in? Why one God above another God? Where's the difference?

The thing is, he ( not himself, but the bible ) tells us that if we dont accept him, we will go to hell. He warns you about it, but you still dont believe.

Remember, the Bible told us; not God. In order to believe that God gave us the choice we first must establish that the Bible is the word of God, but where's the evidence to that? Why would God do it in the form of a book instead of another way. Maybe in our dreams...etc?

And let me conclude with this, I know exactly what you mean when you say "God is there without a doubt, 100%" because I said that too. You may think I was just a moderate Christian but I was really into my religion and faith. Do you think if I honestly disliked Christianity as much as I did that I would take the time to research it this much?

Fact is, I know the feeling; but I analyzed who it was coming from. I want there to be a Heaven just as much as you do but if it's at the cost of lying to myself and my family, as a moral human being, I just can not do it.

Razz, I do get where your coming from, and I do understand what you are saying. It may seem like Im not keeping an open mind, but Im trying the best I can. Is God really giving us a choice? Well, I'd like to think he is. I mean, yes, I guess in the bible it does kind of threaten you with hell, but I think thats its more just the bible trying to tell you what will happen so you can save yourself. So, you can save yourself from that hell, and go to heaven. I dont know why I chose to be a christian, honestly. Its a hard question to answer. Im willing to admit that you stumped me on that one. Good question, Ill try and think about it a little more and give you an answer sometime. I dont know, what really made me choose God. When I got saved, I had the best feeling ever, like I was protected or something ( call it stupid, or whatever, I know it may sound stupid ), a feeling that I was loved, and that I was going to be taken care of. I dont know, its kind of hard to explain, Ill try and find a good answer as to why I chose my God. I know what I want to say, but I dont know how to explain ( no this isnt just an excuse.. haha ). I think he put it in the form of the book because it would be easier to understand, everything that was going on. I mean, when you have a dream, you think.. well it was just a dream, not true. But, the bible is said to be the word of God even though we dont exactly have the evidence, its the stories of God. It does make me wonder sometime why God just doesnt come down and say, " Hey, Im god!" , but I think thats part of him giving us free will, I think with a book, you can read it, and choose to believe, or not. I think it was the best way to express his word with still giving people the choice to believe or not. I dont know, its hard for me to express what I mean right, Im tired tonight, and its hard for me to express what Im trying to say in an understandable way anyways, so I hope your are understanding what I am saying.

Anyways, I know I didnt answer your questions all too well. I know you'll still have more questions, but Im probably not the best one to ask.. haha. I dont know, I try to look into christianity the best I can. I believe because I dont know, I just have feeling that something is there, and that the thing that is there is the christian God. Like I said, Ive had prayers answered, I got an awfully strange feeling when I got saved, but it was a great feeling, and then just all of the things around me. I dont know, I just believe that some kind of higher power had to have done all of this, and I dont know why, I just have a gut feeling that the christian God is the one that did it. Its hard to explain? Im sure you know what I mean.


I do understand why you have chosen the path you took as an atheist. I respect it, regardless of if you are a christian or atheist. I do wish you would accept God, and I do understand that to make you accept God, there will need to be some kind of evidence, and the best I can give is the world we live in, but I know thats not exactly the best, but it good enough for me. I dont know, Im sorry I couldnt answer your questions. Ill think about them for a while, and then maybe get back to in a message or something? Anyways, Im going to bed. Really tired. Take care.

To be honest guys do homosexuals really effect our lives? The answer is no. I've read somewhere on this thread that homosexuals know whos gay and who isnt and that is totally right. So if you're worried about a homosexual coming on to you it really isnt going to happen unless you want it to. I personally dont have a problem with homosexuals. They are humans as well and so why should they be persecuted for their choice of partner. And if its their sex lives that trouble you then ill tell you know that alot of wierder things happen with straight couples behind closed doors. Rant over. Treat everyone the same and we'll be fine. P.s the bible contradicts itself so dont believe a word!!

^Well, in a way homosexuals do affect our. Thanks to the governator, a law has been passed in california that prohibits the use of the words "mom, dad, husband, or wife" in public schools. Supposedly these words are "offensive to homosexuals." Funny though...there was no ban on words such as fag, queer, homo etc. Don't you just love our governtment.

^Well, in a way homosexuals do affect our. Thanks to the governator, a law has been passed in california that prohibits the use of the words "mom, dad, husband, or wife" in public schools. Supposedly these words are "offensive to homosexuals." Funny though...there was no ban on words such as fag, queer, homo etc. Don't you just love our governtment.

Until some one produces proof that this law exists, I am going to concider it totally homophobic bull. I consider myself pretty well versed in the news and haven't heard anything like this, and think that I would if it were real.

But more importantly, that has absolutly nothing to do with some one being homosexual. It is the work of a few stupid lawmakers(if it is real). Being homosexual has nothing to do with the PC, bull****.

^Well, in a way homosexuals do affect our. Thanks to the governator, a law has been passed in california that prohibits the use of the words "mom, dad, husband, or wife" in public schools. Supposedly these words are "offensive to homosexuals." Funny though...there was no ban on words such as fag, queer, homo etc. Don't you just love our governtment.
I call BS.

What are the kids going to say? "My female parental figure"? "Her male life partner"?

I'm pretty sure that law is just a myth, and you should go kick the guy that told you about that in the teeth.

^Well, in a way homosexuals do affect our. Thanks to the governator, a law has been passed in california that prohibits the use of the words "mom, dad, husband, or wife" in public schools. Supposedly these words are "offensive to homosexuals." Funny though...there was no ban on words such as fag, queer, homo etc. Don't you just love our governtment.

What?

You do realize that two homosexuals via marriage call their significant other a "husband", or "wife" if they're female.

What kind of idiotic law is that? Who passed it? And when?

Anyone smell that?!? Smells sorta like bull****!! No political figure in their right mind would pass such a PC piece of **** law

Doubled checked my sources. Seems like that law was just proposed, not passed. Still, its pretty ridiculous. I have no idea what idiot tried to get that law passed. I just doesn't make any sense to me.

Got any proof of that?

This is why I hate religion, it JUST HAS TO be implicated on every subject in our lives.

Robby, don't turn into the other Christians around here. You KNOW it's wrong.

If you were a homosexual and there was a book that flat-out said you must be killed for being who you are, you'd still respect it? Give me a break

And even if it is a belief, it's YOUR belief, not everyone elses. Keep it to yourself.



Most of the founding fathers were secularists and believed that religion should NEVER EVER be imposed in our government. If this country was truly built off Christian beliefs and morals then women would be degraded, homosexuals would be killed, non-believers would be deported, and slaves would be sale around every corner.

very nicely put!

Got any proof of that?
I will ask my roommate where he found it. Rest-assured I'm not making this up, I'm not one who takes delight in anti-homosexual propaganda.

I don't know if this was already discussed, but I'm not really in the mood for reading 16 pages...

opinions on adoptions by homosexual couples?

I really dont see anything wrong with homosexuals adopting. The only thing I would really worry about is the kid getting picked on because his parents are homosexual, or other parents being ignorant and not letting their kids hang out with that kid just because his parents are homosexual. Besides that I see no problem with it really. I mean homosexual couples are normal people, and should have the rights of normal people. But I dont know. I see no problem with it.

I don't have anything against that, but..what about the Oedipus complex? as far as I know, it's normal for children to love the person who's raising from the opposite sex, and try to act like the person from the same sex. For example, a boy would be more atracted to his mom, and he tries to imitate his dad. If a boy has two dads/moms, what would happen?

Those who oppose gay couples adopting believe:

1. That being gay is a choice and therefore gay parents will raise gay children.
2. That being gay is a sin akin to beastiality or pedophilia.

As a person who believes neither of those things, I do not oppose gay couples adopting. 1 in 10 people are gay regardless of home environment. I only believe that adoptive parents need to be carefully screened no matter their sexual orientation to ensure the adopted kids are placed in a happy, stable home.

Those who oppose gay couples adopting believe:

1. That being gay is a choice and therefore gay parents will raise gay children.
2. That being gay is a sin akin to beastiality or pedophilia.

As a person who believes neither of those things, I do not oppose gay couples adopting. 1 in 10 people are gay regardless of home environment. I only believe that adoptive parents need to be carefully screened no matter their sexual orientation to ensure the adopted kids are placed in a happy, stable home.

3. That a homosexual couple may not be able to raise the child under the best conditions.

3. That a homosexual couple may not be able to raise the child under the best conditions.

...because of 1 & 2.

...because of 1 & 2.

I believe that it's important to have biological parents. If they can't have them, and they're young and need the mother's milk, they'll need it from a woman that raises the children; there are some studies that relate children's IQ with being breastfed.

Moving on, that Oedipus complex thing. They'll have to be attracted to one of them, and imitate the other. So, which one should they copy? They'll probably find rolemodels outside the space in which they're raised.

The mocking they'll probably have to face at school is our society's problem, no way I can blame the couple. But still, if this doesn't change, the kids won't get so far as they probably could if they had "normal" parents.

Some people find it's easier to share personal things with their mothers, some prefer their fathers. What would happen in this situation? Would they be confident enough with the 2, or would they keep everything to themselves?

I don't have anything against homosexuality, but I'm not sure if I agree with adoptions.

It is definitely important to have biological parents--very tough to be born without them! Similack.

You're presuming Freud's theory is a fact.

Since when does mocking prevent someone from getting anywhere?

You're presuming to know what someone's relationship will be like with adoptive parents based on typical relationships with biological parents.

Earlier in this thread I expressed similar reservations as you, Kelav. I find it odd that homosexuals want to be parents at all. It definitely isn't a simple issue.

I know a lesbian gal whose partner was artificially inseminated and now the two of them have triplets. Adorable kids and they are very attentive mothers. Not quite the same as adopting, but I think they are proof that gay couples can be sufficient parents.

my mom was talking about homosexual today
















very disturbing

^Thanks for that very informative post. If your not going to post anything relevant to either what the topic is asking or the current discussion, just don't post at all.

Anyway,

I beleive the only problem that would be caused by homosexuals adopting would be how much they'd get made fun of. You see, people are stupid. For some reason, people make fun of other people for the things they can't help. Such as their name, how tall they are, what their parents are like, etc. They'd get made fun of a TON because they have homosexual parents, even though it's not somthing they can help.

But that's really the only actual problem that i see with it.

^Thanks for that very informative post. If your not going to post anything relevant to either what the topic is asking or the current discussion, just don't post at all.

Anyway,

I beleive the only problem that would be caused by homosexuals adopting would be how much they'd get made fun of. You see, people are stupid. For some reason, people make fun of other people for the things they can't help. Such as their name, how tall they are, what their parents are like, etc. They'd get made fun of a TON because they have homosexual parents, even though it's not somthing they can help.

But that's really the only actual problem that i see with it.


Your point goes into proving my point. Kids are going to get made fun of. That is a fact. Its impossible to shelter a child so much that they will not be made fun of. So why not place them in a family situation where they have support. Becoming a biological parent is very easy, have a child. there is no way of screaning to see if they would be good parents. But with the current adoption system there are tests to see if the adoptive parents will establish a supportive home.

parents being ignorant and not letting their kids hang out with that kid just because his parents are homosexual.

Just curious, what kind of parents do you think the "ignorant ones" would be?

Why do you think those kinds of parents would stop their kids from befriending a child of homosexuals, what would motivate them to do that?

Why do you think those kinds of parents would stop their kids from befriending a child of homosexuals, what would motivate them to do that?

The religious ones who think that their child will be tainted by the 'obviously' disgusting homosexual.

I have friends who are gay. And to be honest, who gives a ****? Just because someone is gay, it doesn't mean they want to screw you.
That's one common misconception. That if someone is gay, they love ALL men.

I don't understand why kids make fun of things people can't change. I get annoyed if someone mocks me about something like pimples because hormonal problems are common during puberty, but I don't get annoyed if someone picks on me because I'm skinny. I can change that. If I want to change, I'll change. If I don't want to, no reason to get annoyed.

Since when does mocking prevent someone from getting anywhere?

I realize I'm just making an assumption, but depressions or agressivity (two opposite ways of handling problems) can appear because of that.

Anyone smell that?!? Smells sorta like bull****!! No political figure in their right mind would pass such a PC piece of **** law

Lol. I haven't heard about anything like that happening over here...yet. You can't put anything past the PC-Police these days. Does my head in.
As for homosexuals, I disagree with their beliefs and the argument that you are born like that. But I don't exactly spend my free time going around and attacking them either.

As for homosexuals, I disagree with their beliefs and the argument that you are born like that. But I don't exactly spend my free time going around and attacking them either.

Do you mean beliefs other than being born homosexual? If so what beliefs do you mean.

Also what makes you think that homosexuals are not born as homosexuals?

Well, Razz, there could be many different types of people who wouldnt let their kids hang out with a kid brought up by homosexuals. Some really religious people, and some people who think, " Oh just because his parents are homosexual, must mean he will be and he will turn my son gay! "

I guess I could see if you dont want your kids to be around two homosexuals kissing or something like that, but still, as long as they arent doing anything too bad then whats the big deal? I mean why wouldnt you let a kid come over to your kid's house if his parents are homosexual? Seriously. I have a few bi acquaintances ( not good friends, but we can talk ) and they are fine, they would never try to make me turn bi or make me doing something homosexual to them, and I believe that most homosexual people would do the same. If homosexuals can be fine with straight couples then why cant straight people be fine with them? Its kind of stupid in my opinion.

Lol. I haven't heard about anything like that happening over here...yet. You can't put anything past the PC-Police these days. Does my head in.
As for homosexuals, I disagree with their beliefs and the argument that you are born like that. But I don't exactly spend my free time going around and attacking them either.
What do you mean by their beleifs?

As for homosexuals, I disagree with their beliefs and the argument that you are born like that.

Are they all liars? And when did you choose to be a heterosexual?

Are they all liars? And when did you choose to be a heterosexual?

I am heterosexual because of my life experience. If I was taught my whole life thatI should be gay, I'd probably be one. By the way, I hope that word doesn't offend anyone, I just use it because it's shorter.

I think Razz has a point with that last question. I really doubt they choose to become homosexual. I mean, can you just say, as a heterosexual, that you just choose to be a homosexual? No, not really because you wouldnt have the same attraction to the people of the same sex as the different sex. I doubt people would just choose to be a homosexual, just because of the way they would be ridiculed about it, and some people would not like them just because they are homosexual.

I think Razz has a point with that last question. I really doubt they choose to become homosexual. I mean, can you just say, as a heterosexual, that you just choose to be a homosexual? No, not really because you wouldnt have the same attraction to the people of the same sex as the different sex. I doubt people would just choose to be a homosexual, just because of the way they would be ridiculed about it, and some people would not like them just because they are homosexual.

I think they do choose, but in an unconscious (sp?) way.

But its not really a choice. They have an attraction to the same sex through their life pretty much ( I dont know, but this is what im assuming, correct me if Im wrong. ), and they cant really just make themselves be attracted to the opposite sex. Its doesn't work like that. To give you something you might be able to relate too, it'd be like, wanting to date a girl, and liking her enough to date her, but dating someone else, so to save the relationship you try to make yourself quit liking that girl, but you cant can you? You can stay away from her, and try not to let anyone know, but you cant just quit liking her, as homosexuals cant just quit being attracted to the same sex. That may have not been the best way to relate it, but still, it might help a little bit.

I'm not saying they can stop it, I'm just saying (using your example) I can avoid liking that specific girl.

Anyway, it is known that the absence of a father is bad for a young boy, and that may turn him homossexual, because he may try to find the love he needed from his father in another boy.

I am heterosexual because of my life experience. If I was taught my whole life thatI should be gay, I'd probably be one. By the way, I hope that word doesn't offend anyone, I just use it because it's shorter.

How can you be taught to be gay?

Can you be taught to have sexual relationships with pigs too?

I'm not saying they can stop it, I'm just saying (using your example) I can avoid liking that specific girl.

But that doesn't mean you wont have a sexual attraction to her...and besides, we're not talking about a person-by-person basis, we're talking an entire gender.

Could you honestly tell me that you can choose to not having any attraction to women if you just tried?

Quite ignorant assumption if you ask me...

How can you be taught to be gay?

Can you be taught to have sexual relationships with pigs too?



But that doesn't mean you wont have a sexual attraction to her...and besides, we're not talking about a person-by-person basis, we're talking an entire gender.

Could you honestly tell me that you can choose to not having any attraction to women if you just tried?

Quite ignorant assumption if you ask me...

If my parents taught me since I was born that I should have relationships with pigs, there's a chance I could do it.


I only used that argument because I tried to use the same example, I realized it wasn't the best one. But actually, if you fool yourself for enough time, you may change. Some killers tell the judge they're innocent so many times, they start to really believe they're not guilty of anything and they didn't do it.

If my parents taught me since I was born that I should have relationships with pigs, there's a chance I could do it.

So let me get this straight, if your parents taught you that having a sexual relationship with a pig:

http://www.americazoo.com/kids/graphics/pigs1.jpg

You're actually telling me that you may have considered it? That you actually believe you could've been sexually attracted to a pig because you were told so?

The ignorance is unbelievable...

Some killers tell the judge they're innocent so many times, they start to really believe they're not guilty of anything and they didn't do it.

But that's assuming it's a choice. Do you honestly believe that your attraction to the opposite sex was done because it was taught that way? Speaking of which, when did your parents tell you that liking girls was the right thing to do?

And if you're going to respond with a "I could've been attracted to boys if I was told so" then what you're actually admitting is your a bisexual, believe it or not...

So let me get this straight, if your parents taught you that having a sexual relationship with a pig:

http://www.americazoo.com/kids/graphics/pigs1.jpg

You're actually telling me that you may have considered it? That you actually believe you could've been sexually attracted to a pig because you were told so?

The ignorance is unbelievable...



But that's assuming it's a choice. Do you honestly believe that your attraction to the opposite sex was done because it was taught that way? Speaking of which, when did your parents tell you that liking girls was the right thing to do?

And if you're going to respond with a "I could've been attracted to boys if I was told so" then what you're actually admitting is your a bisexual, believe it or not...
Good point. And I love the pig picture, he's winking at me.

So let me get this straight, if your parents taught you that having a sexual relationship with a pig:

http://www.americazoo.com/kids/graphics/pigs1.jpg

You're actually telling me that you may have considered it? That you actually believe you could've been sexually attracted to a pig because you were told so?

The ignorance is unbelievable...



But that's assuming it's a choice. Do you honestly believe that your attraction to the opposite sex was done because it was taught that way? Speaking of which, when did your parents tell you that liking girls was the right thing to do?

And if you're going to respond with a "I could've been attracted to boys if I was told so" then what you're actually admitting is your a bisexual, believe it or not...

What about children raised by animals? Do they feel attracted to people or to the species that raised them?

And try not to use the word ignorance/ignorant too often, makes you look arrogant and dogmatic in my opinion.

Call me bisexual if you want to, I'm not attracted to men but it's not because I think it's not natural, I just don't feel attracted to them the same way I don't feel attracted to fat or black girls. What, will you call me a racist now?

If forced to choose, whom would you have sex with, a fat black girl or a man? I don't know about you, but me and the chubby sister would be doing the horizontal lambada. Then again, I like big butts and I cannot lie...

If forced to choose, whom would you have sex with, a fat black girl or a man? I don't know about you, but me and the chubby sister would be doing the horizontal lambada. Then again, I like big butts and I cannot lie...

I was expecting an answer like that :tongue:
But I'm 99,9% sure I'd choose the sista too...or kill the person that made me choose. Yeah, that would work.

What about children raised by animals? Do they feel attracted to people or to the species that raised them?

What the hell?

^I beleive he's reffering to what are called "Feral Children" (correct me if that is wrong). They are children raised by non-humans, and it's quite rare but still happens.

I still don't see how it makes sense though...here's the definition I got from Wikipedia:

A feral child (feral, - wild or undomesticated) is a human child who has lived isolated from human contact from a very young age, and has no (or little) experience of human care, loving or social behavior, and, crucially, of human language.

OK..."isolated from human contact from a very young age"

So would Kelav be telling me that homosexuals were isolated from the opposite sex at a young age? That they never interacted with women? That the reason most homosexuals are that way is because they've interacted with males more often than females? (vice versa for gay females)

If that's the case then why is it that we see homosexuals hanging out with females more often than males? Wouldn't it make sense (if we were contrasting this to feral children) for the homosexuals to have more adaptive friendships with males?

And another thing, feral children seem to be psychologically distraught and to rehabilitate them would be difficult, but how would homosexuals be in this category? They're perfectly healthy and normal people, why isn't homosexuality considered a mental illness? The answer is: it's not.

What the hell?

I read at least 5 articles about kids "adopted" by animals, from wolves to chickens. They act like the animals that raised them, and can't talk nor walk. Sometimes, even their skeleton might change to adapt themselves to these new conditions. It's on my psychology book, by the way, if you want me to translate it and post it I'd be glad to.

I read at least 5 articles about kids "adopted" by animals, from wolves to chickens. They act like the animals that raised them, and can't talk nor walk. Sometimes, even their skeleton might change to adapt themselves to these new conditions. It's on my psychology book, by the way, if you want me to translate it and post it I'd be glad to.

But you're contrasting different species, human beings are still human beings.

Are you saying that homosexuals are in the same line of thinking as feral children?

I still don't see how it makes sense though...here's the definition I got from Wikipedia:



OK..."isolated from human contact from a very young age"

So would Kelav be telling me that homosexuals were isolated from the opposite sex at a young age? That they never interacted with women? That the reason most homosexuals are that way is because they've interacted with males more often than females? (vice versa for gay females)

If that's the case then why is it that we see homosexuals hanging out with females more often than males? Wouldn't it make sense (if we were contrasting this to feral children) for the homosexuals to have more adaptive friendships with males?

And another thing, feral children seem to be psychologically distraught and to rehabilitate them would be difficult, but how would homosexuals be in this category? They're perfectly healthy and normal people, why isn't homosexuality considered a mental illness? The answer is: it's not.

I wasn't talking about homossexuality, but about that argument of loving, let's say, a pig. And you're the one who brought that up :tongue:

Try to look at that the other way 'round. Homossexuals hang out with females (I know it's not always true and everything, but I'm in a hurry let's say it is) and just imitate them. They like guys, so does he (the homosexual). Being raised by a single mother, like I said, might make you try to search for the love of a male, paternal figure in another person. And you grow up "imitating" your mother.

But you're contrasting different species, human beings are still human beings.

Are you saying that homosexuals are in the same line of thinking as feral children?

Feral children are still humans, and they were raised in a completely different way that made them look at things at another completely different angle. That was my point there. I think sexuality is really related to points of view, from the moment you are born.

It's on my psychology book, by the way, if you want me to translate it and post it I'd be glad to.
Please do

I don't believe you are born liking the opposite sex or the same sex for that matter. I think it comes through nature vs nuture. Could be other sources that influenced in liking the same sex.

Our nation was not built on christan beliefs but on deeist beliefs.

Please do

Maybe tomorrow, I'll have a test tomorrow and I didn't study yet (it's 10PM right now). I can tell you one of those "feral children" was named Victor, and another was Isabel.

Well, if you beleive that sexuality is based on what you've been taught, does that mean every single homosexual was brought up to be that way?

I don't think so. If sexuality was based on what you've been taught, then wouldn't basically everyone be straight by now?

Well, if you beleive that sexuality is based on what you've been taught, does that mean every single homosexual was brought up to be that way?

I don't think so. If sexuality was based on what you've been taught, then wouldn't basically everyone be straight by now?

No. If someone forbids you to lick your elbow, you'd probably try it.

And they're not "brought up" to be that way, it's a combination of the female genes they have with the environment they live in I guess.

^Well, actually, homosexuality is caused by your hormones being switched around (i'm putting that in stupid talk, it's much more complicated than that i cant explain it well) before your even born. Most of the time its while your still inside your mommy's belly, and rarely it occurs while your actually out and living. Its not how your brought up, or what gender your brought up around. Your straight because your hormones are normal, and thats how your supposed to be.

^Well, actually, homosexuality is caused by your hormones being switched around (i'm putting that in stupid talk, it's much more complicated than that i cant explain it well) before your even born. Most of the time its while your still inside your mommy's belly, and rarely it occurs while your actually out and living. Its not how your brought up, or what gender your brought up around. Your straight because your hormones are normal, and thats how your supposed to be.

That's what I meant when I talked about the genes, but it's not the only thing. A baby isn't just a miniature of what he's going to be when he grows up.

^In the case of sexuality, yes, it is. Generally, people don't just "change". 99 percent of the time, your born with your hormones/genes a certain way and it stays about that way your entire life.

what about experiences like rape? girls raped by guys and later turning lesbians?

Could be a psychological thing, where the woman is so afraid of sexual activity with men because of rape that they avoid it entirely and have sex with girls instead.

I wouldn't technically classify that person as a lesbian though - to me, a lesbian is a woman who is sexually attracted to other women, not someone to 'forces' themselves (unconsciously or not) to avoid sexual contact with men.

~Necro

^I don't know..they could simply turn asexual (sp?) and avoid any kind of sexual intercourse..I mean, immagine that your mom abused you..do you think you could force yourself to be gay? Maybe you'd start to see some qualities in men, but I highly doubt you'd think "I hate women, I think I'll turn gay"

^I agree. I believe in the genes thing.
I'd say if we just stop debating homosexuality, let them have their rights just like we let people from every other country of the world, whether they are iraqian(sp) or columbian(sp), we let them have all equal rights.
why not let homosexuals have them?
i understand the military not wanting them, because the spread of STDs overseas is not a good thing. but they have a don't tell don't ask policy. so they accept them, in a way.
'course, the military would accept all kinds of convicts.

anyway..

Say MRCK or Johnny16tx were gay. Would you lose any respect for them?

I wouldn't. They're still phenomenal skaters. Therefore, their sexual preference should mean little.

What someone does in bed or in a relationship is no concern of yours. What they do outside of bed or relationships may be, but personal things should be kept personal, and not be a reason to ridicule them.

i understand the military not wanting them, because the spread of STDs overseas is not a good thing
I REALLY hope your not implying what i sounds like your implying. If it is, your the most ignorant person that's posted in this thread so far. Please clarify that sentence.
Say MRCK or Johnny16tx were gay. Would you lose any respect for them?

I wouldn't. They're still phenomenal skaters. Therefore, their sexual preference should mean little.
Wow, you really need to work on clarifying your sentences. Your making it sound like that their sexual preference should only matter if they aren't good skaters.

I REALLY hope your not implying what i sounds like your implying. If it is, your the most ignorant person that's posted in this thread so far. Please clarify that sentence.

Wow, you really need to work on clarifying your sentences. Your making it sound like that their sexual preference should only matter if they weren't good skaters.

You know what he means, why call him ignorant?

If a soldier is gay and has sex wich other soldier they can transmit STDs..no sex, no STDs!

^Because he is implying that all gay people have STD's. How do you not see the ignorance in that?

^If he's implying that, you're right. I just assume he was talking about possible sexual intercourse between men when at least one of them has a STD

I wish F!F!C! would weigh in here.

That homosexuality is the result of upbringing or a traumatic experience is contrary to what I've heard directly from gay people. It's just the way they are, man.

As a heterosexual, I've found women attractive since I was a very small child. No one taught it to me, it's just the way I am. Changing it would not be possible, even for a second. The shape of women, their voices, their scents, the way they move...I mean, come on. No heterosexual just decides to stop liking what they like based on some event. It doesn't happen.

Conversely, I don't think gay people can nor do they want to change their desires.

I wish F!F!C! would weigh in here.

That homosexuality is the result of upbringing or a traumatic experience is contrary to what I've heard directly from gay people. It's just the way they are, man.

As a heterosexual, I've found women attractive since I was a very small child. No one taught it to me, it's just the way I am. Changing it would not be possible, even for a second. The shape of women, their voices, their scents, the way they move...I mean, come on. No heterosexual just decides to stop liking what they like based on some event. It doesn't happen.

Conversely, I don't think gay people can nor do they want to change their desires.
Exactly. Even the homosexuals say they've just always been like that.

Exactly. Even the homosexuals say they've just always been like that.

What I'm questioning is exactly that..all of them? Can't a small child find the opposite sex attractive and when they become sexually active can't they change?

^No. They might become a LITTLE bisexual, but its impossible to change completley in such a short time.

Well, I don't know how to keep arguing this, so we'll just have to agree on disagreeing. I realized I changed really a lot since I was a kid to this day, and I have the belief that I could've changed my sexual orientation too if different things in my life had happened.

gay people are gay

stupid posts are stupid

Well, I don't know how to keep arguing this, so we'll just have to agree on disagreeing. I realized I changed really a lot since I was a kid to this day, and I have the belief that I could've changed my sexual orientation too if different things in my life had happened.

I don't know, I think it's just ignorant to say that it was a choice when you're only assumption is based on scripture.

Why is it that the majority of non-believer's are not convinced that homosexuality is a choice? I mean, to think you chose your own sexual orientation is pretty ridiculous.

I had my first crush on a girl in the 2nd grade and I don't understand how I could've "chosen" to have such a feeling...especially if most of your best friends are guys.

I don't know, I think it's just ignorant to say that it was a choice when you're only assumption is based on scripture.

Why is it that the majority of non-believer's are not convinced that homosexuality is a choice? I mean, to think you chose your own sexual orientation is pretty ridiculous.

I had my first crush on a girl in the 2nd grade and I don't understand how I could've "chosen" to have such a feeling...especially if most of your best friends are guys.

First of all, I'm not Christian. I guess I'm a Satanist, except from all the melodramatic psychic rituals because I don't believe in magic. I'm going to give one of those rituals a try, though, and after it fails (which I'm pretty sure will happen) I'll try to search other similar religions.

When I say "choose" I don't mean it in a conscious way..but I don't know enough about it to keep debating it. Anyway, who cares, I'm not going to hate anyone for being gay.

Homosexuality won't affect me at all since Im not gay. If they are allowed to get married in every state thats fine if not no snot out of nose.....just please don't make out in public.

Homosexuality won't affect me at all since Im not gay. If they are allowed to get married in every state thats fine if not no snot out of nose.....just please don't make out in public.

why can't they make out, if you can make out with your girlfriend?

I saw 2 men making out once, it bothered me but I think they should have the same rights.

^I personally beleive that nobody should make out in public. I know I don't want to see you fondle each other, and i'm pretty sure not many other people do either. Hold hands and stuff, that's fine. Just don't make out.

And am i the only guy that isnt bothered by seeing 2 guys making out? haha

its says in the bible "a man shall not lie with a man like he shall with a women". im pretty sure thats why most christians (obviously catholics) do not support homosexuals.

its says in the bible "a man shall not lie with a man like he shall with a women". im pretty sure thats why most christians (obviously catholics) do not support homosexuals.

Yes, but not everyone follows the Bible, and just because a select group believes it to be true, doesn't mean it should be instigated on the whole nation. There must be the separation of church and state, and just because your God doesn't think it's okay, that doesn't mean people who don't believe it have to follow it. This should be a land of the free, and freedom should apply to everyone, despite sexual orientation. You'd think that a nation that can so strongly oppose racism, sexism, etc. Would have the sense to allow someone to love who they love, maynee.

I Think homosexuals should have rights. As much as I disagree with their preference for my beliefs and my personal opinions. I don't think they choose to like the same sex. It's not a choice at all. It's just the way they feel. Nobody can't change the way they feel. Can you change your like and dislikes. It's imprinted in our genes. The foundation is already made and you can't change it. If homosexual start affecting the system in a negative such as forcing the schools to say parents instead of mom and dad. Then we have a problem. I think it should be balanced out. Heterosexual and homosexual should have fairness with each other. With the schools system again, you should have the right to say mom, dad, and parents. Not favoring one side. Same with marriage.

I don't believe marriages should be between two of the same sexes. Many others believes this too. What gives us the right to enforce our opinions to their lifestyles though? Again, like I said they should be able to get married. I don't see how my opinion or somebody else's opinion should affect someone's personal choice that they can't change. Just because I don't agree what they do with their life, does that means that they are not allowed to live the life they want because of what I think of it? oh please give me break. Why not freakin force people to believe some religion then if it's based all in personal opinions.

I don't have hate towards homosexuals, it's just don't agree with their preference. The same way I don't agree with somebody's else's belief about religion, evolution or whatever it may be. Does that mean because we don't agree that we have to force each personal preference to one another. That alone just starts unnecessary conflicts. I wouldn't want to be forced to believe in some certain religion that isn't my personal preference just because somebody doesn't agree with my beliefs. Same goes with homosexuals. I don't want my beliefs to affect their life. I believe in fairness to all. Instead favoring one side with whatever issue it has to deal with.

It should be fair to the point that the two sides of the issue should reach an agreement that satisfies each other. People should have the freedom to choose the way they want to live without having the burden of being forced to do something against their own will. Since society opinions doesn't agree with it.ha what a joke. This shouldn't even be an issue. Let the homosexual live their life styles. Let them be happy.

My thoughts on the last few pages(except a few posts): Why in the world does it matter if its a choice or not?

My thoughts on the last few pages(except a few posts): Why in the world does it matter if its a choice or not?

curiosity is a natural inquisitive behaviour :D

My thoughts on the last few pages(except a few posts): Why in the world does it matter if its a choice or not?

Because if it's a choice then they could easily attribute it to something psychologically wrong with the person.

They could then compare the choice of homosexuality with the choice of pedophilia or beastality, something psychologically wrong with the person to attribute their sexual orientation to the abnormal.

With you, as a homosexual, did you honestly choose your sexual orientation? Of all the gay people I've asked before they hate it when people would call their orientation a choice, it makes no sense. Why the hell would someone choose to be gay anyway?

I say it isn't normal because if everyone was gay the human race would disappear. On the other hand, I don't care if it's normal or not, and the planet is overcrowded anyway.

I never made a conscious choice to be attracted to men as well as women(and any one between). I dont know how in the world any one can claim that you consciously choose your sexuality, if I chose to be queer hetero people would have to had chosen to be hetero as well.

I say it isn't normal because if everyone was gay the human race would disappear. On the other hand, I don't care if it's normal or not, and the planet is overcrowded anyway.

You havent seen much of the world, have you?

You havent seen much of the world, have you?

More people = more polution

Maybe I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but look at the world's population in 1907 and compare it to today's population.

More people = more polution

Maybe I don't live in the middle of nowhere, but look at the world's population in 1907 and compare it to today's population.
Dosent mean the world is over populated. Have you ever ridden in a plane? There is such an INCREDIBLE amount of untouched land. We've got a long ways to go before we have to worry about being over-populated.

You know, Kelav, we HAVE to find somthing we agree on. Besides that one little thing like last week. haha. We never agree on ANYTHING.

Just because there is space where people do not live, that does not mean we are not overcrowded.

why can't they make out, if you can make out with your girlfriend?

I saw 2 men making out once, it bothered me but I think they should have the same rights.

Well its frowned on by people and would start a rally Im pretty sure. Sure they should have the same rights as us, but it would impact and influence kids. Kids might see it and ask their parents and their parents fill their heads with negative things (like with racism).

But thats just me, they would mostly outlaw it if it became a big problem.

Just because there is space where people do not live, that does not mean we are not overcrowded.
He said the planet, not people. The planet is far from being overcrowded. Human population might be starting to go crazy, but the planet is definitley not overcrowded.

He said the planet, not people. The planet is far from being overcrowded. Human population might be starting to go crazy, but the planet is definitley not overcrowded.

Well, when I say overcrowded I don't really mean it like "there's no space to live", it's more like "too many people doing bad things, and everyone using too many resources"

It's your time to disagree with me now, and saying I used the word "like" like a cheerleader is not an option :D

^You used the word like like a cheerleader.

:)
I see where your coming from now. And, get ready for this, I AGREE! GASP! We are using up a lot of our resources.

you chose that when you are growing up because the relation with the world and your parents and thing

^Did you not read a single post in this thread?

PEOPLE DO NOT CHOOSE THEIR SEXUALITY. It dosent matter what the hell your parents are, it's however YOUR genes/hormones are made up. And your logic makes no sense, because that would mean that all gay people have gay parents. And i think it's pretty much safe to say your biological parents are not Homosexual.

^Did you not read a single post in this thread?

PEOPLE DO NOT CHOOSE THEIR SEXUALITY. It dosent matter what the hell your parents are, it's however YOUR genes/hormones are made up. And your logic makes no sense, because that would mean that all gay people have gay parents. And i think it's pretty much safe to say your biological parents are not Homosexual.


Wow, I dont know why people have any respect for your debating skills with posts like that.

your genes? wouldnt it be just a choice...? i bet if all the women in the world just died for some odd reason right now then you would have to be at one point gay if you want a soul mate.

your genes? wouldnt it be just a choice...? i bet if all the women in the world just died for some odd reason right now then you would have to be at one point gay if you want a soul mate.


...Ill pass...I honeslty think Id just live single. I could never see a guy that way...*runs in a corner and jacks off*

your genes? wouldnt it be just a choice...? i bet if all the women in the world just died for some odd reason right now then you would have to be at one point gay if you want a soul mate.
for some people it is a choice but for others it is a genetic/hormone thing, and this (http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html) website talks about it in more detail

Wow, I dont know why people have any respect for your debating skills with posts like that.
I wasnt even aware that my debating skills were respected by anyone, to be honest. Debating is definitley not my field.

a simple way to answer this is to go back to Darwins theory of evolution "the survival of the fittest." I'm agnostic and I don't have a problem with homosexuals but the reason why so many religions are against it is because in NATURE it's considered unatural because homosexuals can't bear offspring. If only the fittest were to survive, in the past at least, then homosexuals would be the first to go. If you look at life in general, in the animal kingdom, the main focus in life is to mate(pass on our strong genes, and the ones with weaker genes die), provide, and survive. I do agree that gay people can't help but to be gay and i hate to see gays be persecuted epecially in religion, but take it from science rather than our human emotions. some think it's a choice, some think it's a glitch - homosexuality is such an ambiguous topic

Yet, christianism refuses Darwin's theory.

Yet, christianism refuses Darwin's theory.

lol. this is a rare occurence where christianity actually supports science and vice versa. darwins theory is very basic, elementary, factual and explains why people don't understand homosexuality-not only christians. if anyone refuses darwins proven biological theory, proven meaning backed by evidence, they don't comprehend how the world functions... religious or not. christians believe god made all of those particles and genes included in darwins theory and it's that notion that separates scientists from christians not complete blind skepticism. you do know that not all scientists are athiests right?

Good posts, iminjapam. I must backtrack on a few of my own statements here with your thoughts in mind.

As usual with nature, the issue is much more shades of gray than simple black and white. From my own perspective, choosing sexuality just seems ridiculous because I don't feel I chose my own orientation nor do I feel it would be possible to change it. Yet, there are bisexual people who feel both orientations, so perhaps such people do make a choice, maybe even spur-of-the-moment decisions. So, I imagine there are some for whom sexuality isn't a choice, some for whom it is a choice, and some for whom it is a