homosexuals should be allowed to amrry. i am a christian and know its a sin but sin is sin. Even to all you christians read the bible. I mean i thought about it. Its the same as watching porn or being a chronic liar. it is all sin and we all commit crimes against god so they should be allowed to.

Is it illegal to lie? or to watch porn? or to have sex? or to lust?
Or hate? or be jealous of your neighbors?
NO!
we should allow homosexuals as many rights as us. there are homo christians. Its all about praying for forgivness. It is a free country it was meant to stop discrimination and to allow religious freedom.

Do you beleive in racism? if not dont discriminate against gays. they are just as good as you. maybe it seems different but YOU SIN TOO

Dude, that's like saying you can be a Christian porn director. Or a Christian prostitute. These lifestyles are totally embracing sin, and you can't be a Christian if you love to sin. Thats my thoughts on Homosexual couples, and you know my thoughts about the rest.

i agree with you except everyone sins you justmust try your hardest you cant jsut stop being gay

Homosexuality is the sin, not marriage.

Yes, everyone has free will to sin. Murder, rape, it's all free will baby. Should they? Should we restrict some free will in order to preserve our society? Absolutely. (I understand that many think homosexuality is no big deal, and it really isn't an issue to me, their life, they got to live with the consequences). When we bring in homosexual marriages, we are breaking into new territories, and actively saying that homosexuality is absolutely cool, and it ain't. It's another sin that society is saying is okay. To me, it is no different then music endorcing sin, or movies glorifying it. I see our world morally crumbling is all. Opposition to sin is another way to slow its process.

I know that if you don't care about sinning, then you're gonna say there's nothing wrong with any of it. I understand, because I been there.

razz - you ain't gettin a proper reply from me until you learn to play nice. :icon_hug:
How is legalizing homosexual marriage saying it is cool? Have you ever honestly thought "hey heterosexual marriage is legal, it must be cool"? So now just because something is legal people think it is automatically cool? I have never seen anything like that among people. By the way how can you compare gay marriage to rape or murder? Does gay marriage hurt anyone? No, it doesn't there is nothing wrong with it. Your only argument is legalization=cool which hey, then we should have a country full of cigarette smokers, drinkers and gun owners.

So you'll oppress others to stop the world from "morally crumbling" because I'm sure oppression is just a great moral everyone should practice.

Oh and savedskater43 I have to say +rep for you for putting the rights of others before your religion.

saved, you're right. I never said it's easy. Everyone has a sin to struggle with. I would agree that a homosexual's sin is probably one of the hardest because it is so ingrained in their lifestyle, and you have people saying it's all good.

"With God, all things are possible" Matthew 19:26

ROMANS 8:14 NKJ
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

ROMANS 8:26 NKJ
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


bben - you read in too much to the context of "cool". Cool = okay to do, in this context. Lol. Basically it has to do with the quality of life. I foresee much more homosexual activity when this is legalized. Guess I sound like a bigot to some people because of my thoughts, or ignorant, or whatever else you wanna say. I like to think I see everything at an unbiased face value. I see homosexuality as it is - evil.

The problem is, we are desensitized to sin. I see 8 year olds listening to 50 cent on buses. When will people think there's a problem?
Merging doublepost
I think many who think there is a gay gene, or that homosexuality is not a choice should read:

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

How is homosexual sex evil? Do you have a reason aside from "God told me so"?

How is homosexual sex evil? Do you have a reason aside from "God told me so"?

Exactly. How the hell is two guys or two chicks sleeping together affecting you? If they're being happy, don't you think that this is making the world a happier place in general?

And you guys might start thinking about this. God did not write the Bible. 4 apostles wrote it. It is in no way the direct word from God.

Being a Catholic is how you relate your specific situation with the Bible and God, not just following the Bible word by word. I mean, seriously, we're in the 21st century, not the 1st century. Things have changes. Humans have "evolved". Apparently, human minds have not.

How is legalizing homosexual marriage saying it is cool? Have you ever honestly thought "hey heterosexual marriage is legal, it must be cool"? So now just because something is legal people think it is automatically cool? I have never seen anything like that among people. By the way how can you compare gay marriage to rape or murder? Does gay marriage hurt anyone? No, it doesn't there is nothing wrong with it. Your only argument is legalization=cool which hey, then we should have a country full of cigarette smokers, drinkers and gun owners.

So you'll oppress others to stop the world from "morally crumbling" because I'm sure oppression is just a great moral everyone should practice.

Oh and savedskater43 I have to say +rep for you for putting the rights of others before your religion.
Thank you.










saved, you're right. I never said it's easy. Everyone has a sin to struggle with. I would agree that a homosexual's sin is probably one of the hardest because it is so ingrained in their lifestyle, and you have people saying it's all good.








bben - you read in too much to the context of "cool". Cool = okay to do, in this context. Lol. Basically it has to do with the quality of life. I foresee much more homosexual activity when this is legalized. Guess I sound like a bigot to some people because of my thoughts, or ignorant, or whatever else you wanna say. I like to think I see everything at an unbiased face value. I see homosexuality as it is - evil.

The problem is, we are desensitized to sin. I see 8 year olds listening to 50 cent on buses. When will people think there's a problem?
Merging doublepost
I think many who think there is a gay gene, or that homosexuality is not a choice should read:

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

I honest to god agree with you but they should have the same rights as you. Marriage once again is not a sin. Juist think this way god loves everyone. But i very well agree with you. We should love the sinner. PRAY FOR THEM. and please dont neg i fully agree i just want to show both sides of the argument. Lets just all be chill and be friends lol. ummm but think of it this way you dont tell someone to go to hell if they dont beleive in jesus, you tell them the good word and pray that they become a christian.

saved, you're right. I never said it's easy. Everyone has a sin to struggle with. I would agree that a homosexual's sin is probably one of the hardest because it is so ingrained in their lifestyle, and you have people saying it's all good.








bben - you read in too much to the context of "cool". Cool = okay to do, in this context. Lol. Basically it has to do with the quality of life. I foresee much more homosexual activity when this is legalized. Guess I sound like a bigot to some people because of my thoughts, or ignorant, or whatever else you wanna say. I like to think I see everything at an unbiased face value. I see homosexuality as it is - evil.

The problem is, we are desensitized to sin. I see 8 year olds listening to 50 cent on buses. When will people think there's a problem?
Merging doublepost
I think many who think there is a gay gene, or that homosexuality is not a choice should read:

http://www.trueorigin.org/gaygene01.asp

I like how you had no comment on how I said you would oppress others to keep the world from "morally crumbling." Please tell me, is oppression a moral everyone should live by?

I'm pretty sure I did not take cool out of context, by legalizing it gay marriage would be cool which equals "okay to do" according to you. Things like cigarettes, alcohol, and guns are legal so according to you they are "okay to do" but does everyone in the U.S. use them? No. Honestly, do think if gay marriage is legalized the majority of people are going to decide not to be heterosexual anymore be gay instead? If that is the case then Massachusetts must be a state full of gays then.

About the article, it seemed to prove nothing about whether or not there is a gay gene instead just refuted other studies pointing towards that there may be a gay gene. There is also the fact that it is an obviously biased study done by people who are desperately out to prove that being gay is a "sin."

Our world is far from "morally crumbling." In some ways/places morality has improved, in others it's no different than it's ever been. To say morality is worse today than it's been in the past is either stupid or willfully ignorant. The "good old days" people hark back to are a fantasy.

Gay people have existed for the entirety of human history. Disallowing them from exchanging nuptuals won't prevent their existence, they're here for the long run. Saying they can get married doesn't justify homosexuality (whatever that means), it just means gay folks can get joint tax benefits. Where's the morality in preventing people who are committed to each other for life from benefitting financially from that status?

=z28=, I promise to play nice....mind answering the questions now? I'm dying to know what you think!

homosexuals should be allowed to amrry. i am a christian and know its a sin but sin is sin. Even to all you christians read the bible. I mean i thought about it. Its the same as watching porn or being a chronic liar. it is all sin and we all commit crimes against god so they should be allowed to.

Is it illegal to lie? or to watch porn? or to have sex? or to lust?
Or hate? or be jealous of your neighbors?
NO!
we should allow homosexuals as many rights as us. there are homo christians. Its all about praying for forgivness. It is a free country it was meant to stop discrimination and to allow religious freedom.

Do you beleive in racism? if not dont discriminate against gays. they are just as good as you. maybe it seems different but YOU SIN TOO

+rep, good post

I show high respect for people with that opinion...

Our world is far from "morally crumbling." In some ways/places morality has improved, in others it's no different than it's ever been. To say morality is worse today than it's been in the past is either stupid or willfully ignorant. The "good old days" people hark back to are a fantasy.

Gay people have existed for the entirety of human history. Disallowing them from exchanging nuptuals won't prevent their existence, they're here for the long run. Saying they can get married doesn't justify homosexuality (whatever that means), it just means gay folks can get joint tax benefits. Where's the morality in preventing people who are committed to each other for life from benefitting financially from that status?

If more people thought like you, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Just something to think about. We try so hard to find something wrong with gay relatioships/marriages, but what about other more dangerous and harmful issues going on in our world such as the massive underage sex trade coming out of Russia, or the massive sexually related issues in Africa? These are issues that are really killing and scarring people for life. What the f*ck should we care if two people of the same sex decide to get jiggy wit it? Why don't we question the neighbor that brings over a hooker when the wife is out of town? I think that would be considered a sin too, according to the Bible.

Wow, this is a hot topic. Lots of real good answers but if I may...

For those of you ingnorant fellas out there, no, you do not choose to be gay or lesbian; you're born that way (whether you decide to stay in the closet for your entire life doesn't change the fact that you're gay). People should know this. Homosexuality has been going on since the birth of man.

That said, would you hate a black person for being black if they have never touched you, never said anything to you, never done you any harm in any way, shape, or form? If I am bold enough to say so, I don't believe that 50 years ago, people could choose weather they wanted to be black or not. I don't think that anyone would choose to be black with all the violence and hatred for blacks going on in the 1950's and 60's. I really don't think that anyone would choose to be gay now in 2008 with all the violence and hatred going on for gays.

But why have we accepted blacks, and still reject gays and lesbians?

Why do you care if two guys or two chicks live together? Is that in any way, shape, or form harming you directly OR indirectly?

Those are the two million-dollar questions.

CHOOSE to be gay, no I sorta doubt it myself. BORN that way because of genetics, from my understanding of genetics (which people point out is wrong but have twice failed to inform me HOW it is wrong, and in this same thread I think), it is impossible for the gene to be spread on, because homosexual sex doesn't make babies. And if it was the rare case that there was a mistake in meiosis, then it wouldn't be as prominent as today. If you want my opinion of it, it's all demonic. From the way I see the Bible, demonic forces are well organized. I could go into detail, but it would take a while and I'd have to look up quite a few Bible verses and explain them so I won't go into detail unless you ask. The Bible says somewhere that the sins of the fathers are passed to the children. For instance, I was a third generation drug user for a small period of time, and would have ended up being a third generation drug dealer if I could've gotten a hold of enough stuff to sale, but Jesus got a hold of me first. Why is it that some people are drawn naturally to one sin, while others another? True, one sin leads to another, but one is always holding more desire over others. Why do some people, even individuals who actually research stuff instead of believing DEA lies, be repulsed by drugs, while others are attracted even if they believe those lies? Because it's somewhere in their family line. Not to mention certain places have different demonic forces over them. For instance, I read a Christian article once (yes, an article on a Christian website. I think cbn.com, but I'm not certain). The person who wrote it stayed in a hotel for a night in the city with the highest suicide rate in the US (can't remember what city, just remember that fact), and the next morning, he started to feel depressed. No reason for it, but he started to feel depressed. Then he prayed, and the word "demon" passed through his head. He commanded it to leave in the name of Jesus, and he didn't feel down in the least since then. Another example is a place in Israel called Masada. A cliff. I was listening to a preacher, Tommy Bates, talk about his childhood, and he told of a story. He didn't read the warning sign saying that over 1000 people had committed suicide there, but strayed from the tour group (that his parents sent him on thinking it would do him good) and sat on the edge. All of a sudden, he heard something in his head tell him to throw himself off the edge. It continued until he was so close to the edge he had to use his elbows to climb back up because he was so close to off the cliff. Then 2 weeks later he found Jesus, and now he's one of the most anointed preachers I've ever been privileged enough to hear preach. So, on that point, it could be demonic spirits from either a family lineage or of the certain province a spirit is assigned to. At least that's how I see it, but that's with my so-called "religious bias." And why we shouldn't allow it, once again from a "religious bias," look at Sodom and Gomarah. They were destroyed because of prominent homosexuality through the towns. I don't think God will destroy us for it, though only because he has children in this nation, but nonetheless, if we allow it, we will be judged, and if you want to look how more common natural disasters are, he's already started.

CHOOSE to be gay, no I sorta doubt it myself. BORN that way because of genetics, from my understanding of genetics (which people point out is wrong but have twice failed to inform me HOW it is wrong, and in this same thread I think), it is impossible for the gene to be spread on, because homosexual sex doesn't make babies.
Well, I don't beleive its genetic either. I honestly have no idea how It happens, but I know its not a choice.

I guess a possibility of it being genetic maybe from when homosexual couples use other people to make the babies for them. But if that were the case, it would be as prominent as it is today, just as you said.

For instance, I read a Christian article once (yes, an article on a Christian website. I think cbn.com, but I'm not certain). The person who wrote it stayed in a hotel for a night in the city with the highest suicide rate in the US (can't remember what city, just remember that fact), and the next morning, he started to feel depressed. No reason for it, but he started to feel depressed. Then he prayed, and the word "demon" passed through his head. He commanded it to leave in the name of Jesus, and he didn't feel down in the least since then.
From a skeptics point of view, this could easily be explained as psychological, with a hint of placebo. Knowing that it had the highest suicide rate in the United States, it could have been playing havoc on his mind, even if he didn't notice it at the time. Just like if you go to a haunted house. Since you know that it is haunted, your subconcious mind will be suggesting certain "Ghostly activities" to you. You will start thinking things are happening, when in fact, they aren't. You'll mistake a floorboard creak for a Footstep-from-beyond, and any form of light you see in the corner of your eye your brain will automatically register as "Ghost". But, if you had gone in not knowing it was haunted, not as many things would happen. That's why "Paranormal Activities" happen to beleivers more than nonbeleivers, because of the psychological factor.

It can also be psychological when he prayed and comannded a demon to leave him. Since he was praying, and "Felt the comfort of God", of course he would feel much more comfortable and at ease with himself. Once he left the hotel, his mind would start dismissing the psycological events going on, since he was no longer on the premises.

Just thought you should see a non-christians view on that one.
Another example is a place in Israel called Masada. A cliff. I was listening to a preacher, Tommy Bates, talk about his childhood, and he told of a story. He didn't read the warning sign saying that over 1000 people had committed suicide there, but strayed from the tour group (that his parents sent him on thinking it would do him good) and sat on the edge. All of a sudden, he heard something in his head tell him to throw himself off the edge. It continued until he was so close to the edge he had to use his elbows to climb back up because he was so close to off the cliff. Then 2 weeks later he found Jesus, and now he's one of the most anointed preachers I've ever been privileged enough to hear preach.
I think I could sum up a theory on another possibility of that, but for it to make sense to you, you'll have to tell me. Do you beleive in the paranormal? Like, residual energies and stuff from past events that happened there? (And maybe even spirits that reside here on earth)

and if you want to look how more common natural disasters are, he's already started.
Nah, Natural Disasters have been a natural occourance since the beginning of time. The most deadly ones were actually quite a few hundred, and even thousands of years ago. They might fluctuate, but thats because they don't have a schedule, they happen when certain forces give way and make them happen.

As far as the paranormal, no not at all. Or at least from your description. I'm guessing like ghosts that haunt places they lived or whatever (like I've seen on the discovery channel before.) As far as the examples I gave, I just thought you'd like it better than me explaining it from the Bible. And yeah quite a while ago, but nonetheless they are happening more often now than for quite a while. But nonetheless youcan have a different opinion. I don't research disasters all that much lol.

As far as the paranormal, no not at all. Or at least from your description. I'm guessing like ghosts that haunt places they lived or whatever (like I've seen on the discovery channel before.) As far as the examples I gave, I just thought you'd like it better than me explaining it from the Bible. And yeah quite a while ago, but nonetheless they are happening more often now than for quite a while. But nonetheless youcan have a different opinion. I don't research disasters all that much lol.
Well, I don't like the term Ghosts. The word "Ghost" makes people think of horror movies, which usually doesn't actually happen. I mean like, spirits/souls of people stuck here on earth, either emotionally drawn to something here, or just can't find the path to cross over.

But your right, I did like those more than the bible. haha. :)

Every once in a while thi question needs to be re-asked, because its usually totally ignored.

How in the world can you make the jump from "homosexuality is wrong according to my personal religion" to "some people should not be allowed to have a government santioned ceremony, regardless of their own personal beliefs"?

CHOOSE to be gay, no I sorta doubt it myself. BORN that way because of genetics, from my understanding of genetics (which people point out is wrong but have twice failed to inform me HOW it is wrong, and in this same thread I think), it is impossible for the gene to be spread on, because homosexual sex doesn't make babies. And if it was the rare case that there was a mistake in meiosis, then it wouldn't be as prominent as today.

This represents a misunderstanding of how genetics work, and I'll explain how. When a child is formed from the DNA of a mother's egg and a father's sperm, within the mixture there is the possibility for the child to have a great number of traits which do not necessarily exist in the parents. We are not exact copies of our parents, nor are we fifty percent of each parent, we are a hodge podge of traits from their bloodlines. This means latent traits which might have skipped a generation or numerous generations may arise in a child because of how its egg and sperm combined. The possibilities extend throughout the entire family trees of the two parents, not at all limited to the two parents conceiving the child.

Every once in a while thi question needs to be re-asked, because its usually totally ignored.

How in the world can you make the jump from "homosexuality is wrong according to my personal religion" to "some people should not be allowed to have a government santioned ceremony, regardless of their own personal beliefs"?

Here's a better question, why should anyone's opinions be pushed upon on others?

Every once in a while thi question needs to be re-asked, because its usually totally ignored.

How in the world can you make the jump from "homosexuality is wrong according to my personal religion" to "some people should not be allowed to have a government santioned ceremony, regardless of their own personal beliefs"?

That blame seems to fall on me I think. =Z28= said that he loved all people regardless of their sexual orientation so with that in mind I asked him if he thinks gay people should be allowed to marry and he responded with a no. From there it just snowballed I guess.

Here's a better question, why should anyone's opinions be pushed upon on others?

Because in our current government structure there is a requirement of laws. And with this, there are some people that will disagree with any law(or the entire idea of laws). The question is when can it be justified to create laws that oppose a group of people?

Because in our current government structure there is a requirement of laws. And with this, there are some people that will disagree with any law(or the entire idea of laws). The question is when can it be justified to create laws that oppose a group of people?

But isn't a law a way to enforce some kind of behavior in regards to everyody, and how it relates to affecting them both directly & indirectly? For example, kidnapping/stealing/murder/trespassing/speeding/fraud/etc are things that affect everyone in one way or another. Even not paying your taxes is against the law, and for a good reason since it indirectly effects the country as a whole.

However, in regards to marriage, why does it matter what anyone thinks about a particular group of people? It affects them in absolutely no way, shape , or form...

Their opinions, whether coming from the Bible, their faith, or whatever, is nothing but useless and meaningless. Sure, they find it offensive when I say that...but I really don't care and never will care.

I have the utmost respect for what you want to believe in your own home, but as soon as you establish those beliefs as the moral laws for the entire country...then you've just granted everyone the right to offend you.

I think you were trying to oppose me, by saying exactly what I said, although more thorough.

No, I understand your stance on this issue...I tend to reply to one person and may comment on other people at the same time.

Not everything I said was against you

But isn't a law a way to enforce some kind of behavior in regards to everyody, and how it relates to affecting them both directly & indirectly? For example, kidnapping/stealing/murder/trespassing/speeding/fraud/etc are things that affect everyone in one way or another. Even not paying your taxes is against the law, and for a good reason since it indirectly effects the country as a whole.

However, in regards to marriage, why does it matter what anyone thinks about a particular group of people? It affects them in absolutely no way, shape , or form...

Their opinions, whether coming from the Bible, their faith, or whatever, is nothing but useless and meaningless. Sure, they find it offensive when I say that...but I really don't care and never will care.

I have the utmost respect for what you want to believe in your own home, but as soon as you establish those beliefs as the moral laws for the entire country...then you've just granted everyone the right to offend you.

So you don't think that full legalization of homosexual marriage will not in any way shape or form, desensitize culture to the gay movement? Therein lies our opposing views.

Lets take your reasoning one step further. What is socially wrong with the "gay movement"? By socially I mean, how does it make our culture less likely to function in a way that helps all people to be free in a way the founders desired(even though they did not act on that desire)?

Lets take your reasoning one step further. What is socially wrong with the "gay movement"? By socially I mean, how does it make our culture less likely to function in a way that helps all people to be free in a way the founders desired(even though they did not act on that desire)?

Ah, so unlike razz, you agree that legalizing it would desensitize us to the gay movement. Good. It's true even if subtly.

This is just another form of desensitization to sin. (Yes, I get my morals from a BOOK! Proud of it. Love it, razz, embrace it :icon_hug:)



(But to answer your question directly, I see productivity levels not being harmed. They might even be upped, because people would be happier. A quote comes to mind - "how could something feel so good, be so bad" Totally true when sin comes into the equation.)

The problem with you saying the only ill would be a drop in morality is that is based on your morality. I dont think homosexuality is morally wrong. So unless you can find direct social problems caused by homosexual marriage, your line of logic does not really work as reasoning to not allow homosexual marriage.

But you did not really answer my question, just simpy side steped it. So I will ask it more directly. How would "desensitizing us to the gay movement" negitivily effect society?

The problem with you saying the only ill would be a drop in morality is that is based on your morality. I dont think homosexuality is morally wrong. So unless you can find direct social problems caused by homosexual marriage, your line of logic does not really work as reasoning to not allow homosexual marriage.

But you did not really answer my question, just simpy side steped it. So I will ask it more directly. How would "desensitizing us to the gay movement" negitivily effect society?

Yes, our morality is different from person to person. Morals in the Bible are pretty clear cut tho, and that's where I get mine from.

As I said, I don't think there are any social problems aside from a decline in morals (to me, and people who are down with JC, God, and the Bible). Obviously many don't see it as an issue of morals, because like I said before, we have been desensitized already.

How would "desensitizing us to the gay movement" negitivily effect society?

If you don't count my thoughts that it will cause: desensitization to sin (and moral decay) no matter how subtle or how grand...

It probably won't effect society in a bad way. As I said, it might be good (if you don't look at the sin/morality of it).

Your thoughts on moral decay do not count because that is a view held by one group, with out any validity outside of religious. And its not legal to ban things based on religious code.

So now thats out of the way, can you think of any reason to not allow homosexual marriage?

Your thoughts on moral decay do not count because that is a view held by one group, with out any validity outside of religious. And its not legal to ban things based on religious code.

So now thats out of the way, can you think of any reason to not allow homosexual marriage?

Nah, of course not. That's my only beef.

Nah, of course not. That's my only beef.

Right, that's the point, no one cares what you believe

No one

Which is why you should keep your beliefs in your own home and not bring your 'belief' (as many of your Christian counterparts) into law and congress.

Think homosexuality is a choice? Fine
Think the earth is 6,000 years old? Fine
Think your deity is the right one? Fine

But again, no one cares what you think...if you have no evidence (which you dont), then attempting to preach it wastes everybody's time.

Right, that's the point, no one cares what you believe

No one

Which is why you should keep your beliefs in your own home and not bring your 'belief' (as many of your Christian counterparts) into law and congress.

Think homosexuality is a choice? Fine
Think the earth is 6,000 years old? Fine
Think your deity is the right one? Fine

But again, no one cares what you think...if you have no evidence (which you dont), then attempting to preach it wastes everybody's time.

But at the same time, you think someone cares what YOU believe? Oh razz, come and give me a hug. :icon_hug: You know I love ya, baby.

What he's saying is this is a secular nation, not a Christian dictatorship. So, just because the bible says something doesn't mean it should be law.

But at the same time, you think someone cares what YOU believe? Oh razz, come and give me a hug. :icon_hug: You know I love ya, baby.

I absolutely agree (not about the hug thing :))

My opinion should have and be of no bearing to what laws should be governed in our society.

Right, that's the point, no one cares what you believe

No one

Which is why you should keep your beliefs in your own home and not bring your 'belief' (as many of your Christian counterparts) into law and congress.

Think homosexuality is a choice? Fine
Think the earth is 6,000 years old? Fine
Think your deity is the right one? Fine

But again, no one cares what you think...if you have no evidence (which you dont), then attempting to preach it wastes everybody's time.


Freedom of religion. Then why are they replacing Christianity in schools with humanistic values?


We have no evidence? You are so completely rude. You are not even a debater razz, it isn't even funny. You told him no one cares? You obviously took our time of your day to debate against what he believes. If you didn't care you would never have debated it because it wouldn't bother you. Where is your proof for the world? How did we get here?



And as far as empires being destroyed, its completely ignorant for you guys to say none have. Read the Bible, you'll find it. But wait, you guys probably haven't thought about that.


EVERY single person in this world knows God is real, they know there is a bigger pictures.


I believe homosexuality is wrong. God hates ALL sexual perversion, not just homosexuality.


The problem is, all of us humans can't relate anything to what we don't know, so we cancel out God and substitute what feels good to us. Kind of like the ancient Greek philosiphy.
Merging doublepost
What he's saying is this is a secular nation, not a Christian dictatorship. So, just because the bible says something doesn't mean it should be law.

Then we can consider it a sexular dictatorship.

EVERY single person in this world knows God is real...

I don't.

Freedom of religion. Then why are they replacing Christianity in schools with humanistic values?

Maybe because not everyone is a Christian? What if they took out Christianity and put in Islam?

No complaints, right?

We have no evidence? You are so completely rude. You are not even a debater razz, it isn't even funny. You told him no one cares? You obviously took our time of your day to debate against what he believes. If you didn't care you would never have debated it because it wouldn't bother you.

I care about the truth

I love hearing other people's opinions, but NOT their beliefs. If your belief comes from something that has no merit in a debate....I'm sorry to burst your bubble but no one cares, they dont...

If a Muslim tried to prove Christianity wrong and used the Qu'ran as their main line of debating, what would you say?

Where is your proof for the world? How did we get here?

We -- don't -- know

And neither does ANYONE else. We humans are programmed to want to know EVERYTHING, if we don't have an answer we're usually satisfied with a metaphorical one.

The problem is, all of us humans can't relate anything to what we don't know, so we cancel out God and substitute what feels good to us. Kind of like the

Quite the opposite...

The answer of 'God' feels good to us because it's provides an answer to something we don't know.

I don't.

Could you tell me what you believe? I know your humanist/agnostic/atheist, or whatever, all are technically the same in my eyes.


I know, you know in your heart that you know there is more to this life. Just because I didn't see the builder of my house, doesn't mean it evolved, I know it was built. If we actually followed our own physical laws, we'd realize that things are made/built, and not just evolving, or whatever the new scientists are trying to put in motion now. Scienctists can't even speak of "Intelligent Design". What has this world come to?

EVERY single person in this world knows God is real, they know there is a bigger pictures.
I don't either.

Scienctists can't even speak of "Intelligent Design". What has this world come to?

Because intelligent design is not science.

Teach it in a philosophy class? Sure
Science class? I don't think so...

Maybe because not everyone is a Christian? What if they took out Christianity and put in Islam?

No complaints, right?



I care about the truth

I love hearing other people's opinions, but NOT their beliefs. If your belief comes from something that has no merit in a debate....I'm sorry to burst your bubble but no one cares, they dont...

If a Muslim tried to prove Christianity wrong and used the Qu'ran as their main line of debating, what would you say?



We -- don't -- know

And neither does ANYONE else. We humans are programmed to want to know EVERYTHING, if we don't have an answer we're usually satisfied with a metaphorical one.


Quite the opposite...

The answer of 'God' feels good to us because it's provides an answer to something we don't know.



I am sorry. I believe in my opinions, obviously you do not. Because your last post just proved that. Say basically in saying, anything that is in your opinion, I will not listen to because you yourself don't believe what you say.





You act as if my Lord and Savior is some kind of drug. And people who are muslim never had a perfect man live. You can't bring in a religion you aren't practicing yourself, because then you're just trying to bring in a scapegoat because your beliefs can't match mine.

Nick, of course you believe in your opinions - why the hell wouldnt you? They're yours!

The thing is, your beliefs don't stem from anything credible...that's the problem here. If you want to believe in God, go right ahead....but don't assume because you worship a book that everyone else should complement its validity.

I'll give you an example of something that bothers me...many Christians believe that homosexual sex is wrong...ok? So what? Why are they trying to make laws against homosexual marriage?

Why? Because they think their beliefs are the right ones and are too narrow-minded to be 'open-minded' - they refuse to acknowledge the other side and only want people to agree with them.

Because intelligent design is not science.

Teach it in a philosophy class? Sure
Science class? I don't think so...

Since when can't the truth be science? Is something being created not science? Or is it because us humans can't even begin to wrap our minds around God, so we just stay in our bubble and stick to what we know which only relates with humans. That is a rediculous thing. If we could have come from monkeys, why couldn't God have created us? Oh..because monkeys live on Earth, and kinda look like my brother, so it must have been the only way we got here! Even thought the Bible is acurrately true and gives nicely layed out recordings of events that are proven in this world. Hence, tower of Babel, limestone on mountains. Yes, I am familiar with plate techtonics, and no I don't think it caused limestone on mountains.

Could you tell me what you believe? I know your humanist/agnostic/atheist, or whatever, all are technically the same in my eyes.

Humanist/agnostic. Not atheist. There's not enough information for me to say whether or not there is a God, it's neither proven nor disproven. Atheists believe there is not a God, I do not believe that.


I know, you know in your heart that you know there is more to this life. Just because I didn't see the builder of my house, doesn't mean it evolved, I know it was built. If we actually followed our own physical laws, we'd realize that things are made/built, and not just evolving, or whatever the new scientists are trying to put in motion now. Scienctists can't even speak of "Intelligent Design". What has this world come to?

No, I do not know there is more to this life. I hope there is, but how would I know it?

Science would require irrefutable evidence of a designer in order to make the determination that the universe is intelligently designed. At this point, there is not irrefutable evidence and it does not follow the available evidence that there must be a designer. Understand? It's not some terrible plot to attack religion--it's the rules of science. It doesn't even mean that the universe isn't intelligently designed--what it means is that there is not enough evidence, scientifically speaking, for it to be a scientific theory.

I think you're taking all of this a little too personally, Nick.

Nick, of course you believe in your opinions - why the hell wouldnt you? They're yours!

The thing is, your beliefs don't stem from anything credible...that's the problem here. If you want to believe in God, go right ahead....but don't assume because you worship a book that everyone else should complement its validity.

I'll give you an example of something that bothers me...many Christians believe that homosexual sex is wrong...ok? So what? Why are they trying to make laws against homosexual marriage?

Why? Because they think their beliefs are the right ones and are too narrow-minded to be 'open-minded' - they refuse to acknowledge the other side and only want people to agree with them.


We aren't narrow minded people. People who can't accept the fact that maybe something created us and that we came from something we can relate to are the narrow minded. They can't open their mind to something bigger, to a bigger creator, a whole bigger picture. Yes, I do believe in my opinions, but as you said, you don't. Its quite wierd that the Bible is the best account of the acient past that todays world has, and no one is willing to accept it because of their own selfishness and their own deisres to please themselves.

Could you tell me what you believe? I know your humanist/agnostic/atheist, or whatever, all are technically the same in my eyes.
Tell you the truth that to me is a pretty jackass thing to say, just because they don't follow the same beliefs as you, you group them all together and say they are all basically the same thing. You are a Christian right? So how would you like it if I said you, Jews, and Muslims are all basically the same thing?

I know, you know in your heart that you know there is more to this life. Just because I didn't see the builder of my house, doesn't mean it evolved, I know it was built. If we actually followed our own physical laws, we'd realize that things are made/built, and not just evolving, or whatever the new scientists are trying to put in motion now. Scienctists can't even speak of "Intelligent Design". What has this world come to?
You obviously know very little about evolution if you think it tries to explain all the questions of the universe which shows that you're forming conclusion without knowing the whole picture so how can you be so sure you are right if you haven't seen both sides completely?

Also how do you know what others think of this life? Last time I checked people formed their own opinions on that.

One more thing that I'd like to mention. It really annoys me when people make the analogy of the creation of a building to God creating the Earth/universe. Last time I checked it takes more than one person to build most buildings you see today so wouldn't your analogy imply that it would take more than one God to create what we see today?

Humanist/agnostic. Not atheist. There's not enough information for me to say whether or not there is a God, it's neither proven nor disproven. Atheists believe there is not a God, I do not believe that.



No, I do not know there is more to this life. I hope there is, but how would I know it?

Science would require irrefutable evidence of a designer in order to make the determination that the universe is intelligently designed. At this point, there is not irrefutable evidence and it does not follow the available evidence that there must be a designer. Understand? It's not some terrible plot to attack religion--it's the rules of science. It doesn't even mean that the universe isn't intelligently designed--what it means is that there is not enough evidence, scientifically speaking, for it to be a scientific theory.

I think you're taking all of this a little too personally, Nick.



I take it personally, because I feel for you guys. It breaks me down that you guys think that I am a narrow minded fool condemning to you hell. You can't even consider that fact that I am trying to share my faith with you guys. There has been no proof that there isn't a God, you are correct, but there has been proof that there is. Just look around, it is hard to take in, and it is probably hard for you to even listen to someone who is quite younger than you. Have you read the Bible? -Not being rude, asking.

^ This is precisely what I mean by narrow minded.

• We don't care what you believe (as you claim), we care about using your beliefs as FACTS
• You make another dumb generalization that people who disbeleief in God do so only because their attempt to please themselves - wtf??

No, we disbelief in God because of the lack of evidence (im sorry, no evidence)

• You say
There has been no proof that there isn't a God,
That's equivallent to EVERYTHING ELSE THAT DOESNT EXIST - You can not disprove something that doesnt exist. I mean, how many times does this have to be said?

Tell you the truth that to me is a pretty jackass thing to say, just because they don't follow the same beliefs as you, you group them all together and say they are all basically the same thing. You are a Christian right? So how would you like it if I said you, Jews, and Muslims are all basically the same thing?


You obviously know very little about evolution if you think it tries to explain all the questions of the universe which shows that you're forming conclusion without knowing the whole picture so how can you be so sure you are right?

Also how do you what others think of this life? Last time I checked people formed their own opinions on that.

One more thing that I'd like to mention. It really annoys me when people make the analogy of building to God creating the Earth/universe. Last time I checked it takes more than one person to build most buildings you see today so wouldn't your analogy imply that it would take more than one God to create what we see today?



I am not trying to group them together. It is my opinion. They all can be classified almost the same way. You're right, it takes many men to create something fast, but then again, you're being narrowminded and only looking through the bubble of human characteristics. And just so you know, cussing to me is pretty immature, I'd try lightening up because your tactics are quite rude and get you no where but on the back burner in my mind.
Merging doublepost
^ This is precisely what I mean by narrow minded.

• We don't care what you believe (as you claim), we care about using your beliefs as FACTS
• You make another dumb generalization that people who disbeleief in God do so only because their attempt to please themselves - wtf??

No, we disbelief in God because of the lack of evidence (im sorry, no evidence)

• You say

That's equivallent to EVERYTHING ELSE THAT DOESNT EXIST - You can not disprove something that doesnt exist. I mean, how many times does this have to be said?



I am narrow minded because I think outside of just what this world offers? Because I connect my mind to something so much greater than myself? Lack of evidence? Miracles...people can't explain them, the best doctors can't, yet they happen. Have you ever sat down and read the Bible with an open mind? Either way razz, it all comes down to if you believe in Jesus Christ or not, I do, you don't. John 3:16.

Since when can't the truth be science?


Truth ACCORDING TO YOU, that is not the truth according to me and every rational person

Is something being created not science?

Only when there's evidence.

Hence, tower of Babel, limestone on mountains. Yes, I am familiar with plate techtonics, and no I don't think it caused limestone on mountains.

No, you don't understand plate tectonics...do you ever know HOW mountains form? Do you think they just appear from the sun and fall into earth?

Have you ever sat down and read the Bible with an open mind? Either way razz, it all comes down to if you believe in Jesus Christ or not, I do, you don't. John 3:16.

Find a chat room for us to discuss and we'll see who knows more about the Bible...

I take it personally, because I feel for you guys. It breaks me down that you guys think that I am a narrow minded fool condemning to you hell. You can't even consider that fact that I am trying to share my faith with you guys. There has been no proof that there isn't a God, you are correct, but there has been proof that there is. Just look around, it is hard to take in, and it is probably hard for you to even listen to someone who is quite younger than you. Have you read the Bible? -Not being rude, asking.

First of all, I do not think you are a narrow-minded fool, and I would not ascribe to you the capability of damning me to hell. I hope that's not what you'd hope for me!

From my perspective, everything in the universe might be evidence of God--or it might not. I give it 50/50. I even know exactly where you're coming from, that you see the wonderfully complex ways in which nature operates and the overwhelming beauty in its patterns and landscapes. Life is a beautiful thing, and it is a miraculous thing to be a human and have the capability to appreciate beauty.

No, I have not read the Bible in its entirety. I am familiar with quite a bit of the stories and the style of the language. My family does not practice any religion.

We aren't narrow minded people. People who can't accept the fact that maybe something created us and that we came from something we can relate to are the narrow minded. They can't open their mind to something bigger, to a bigger creator, a whole bigger picture. Yes, I do believe in my opinions, but as you said, you don't. Its quite wierd that the Bible is the best account of the acient past that todays world has, and no one is willing to accept it because of their own selfishness and their own deisres to please themselves.

Just because the bible talks about some actual events doesn't make the book in it's entirety true.

I am narrow minded because I think outside of just what this world offers? Because I connect my mind to something so much greater than myself? Lack of evidence? Miracles...people can't explain them, the best doctors can't, yet they happen. Have you ever sat down and read the Bible with an open mind? Either way razz, it all comes down to if you believe in Jesus Christ or not, I do, you don't.
In ancient times, people attributed rainfall to Gods, because they could not yet explain how it happens.

Just because we can't explain some things now, doesn't mean we won't be able to in the long run.

First of all, I do not think you are a narrow-minded fool, and I would not ascribe to you the capability of damning me to hell. I hope that's not what you'd hope for me!

From my perspective, everything in the universe might be evidence of God--or it might not. I give it 50/50. I even know exactly where you're coming from, that you see the wonderfully complex ways in which nature operates and the overwhelming beauty in its patterns and landscapes. Life is a beautiful thing, and it is a miraculous thing to be a human and have the capability to appreciate beauty.

No, I have not read the Bible in its entirety. I am familiar with quite a bit of the stories and the style of the language. My family does not practice any religion.



First off, Noj, you are a great person to talk to about this, because you understand everything I comunicate and take it in a very mature way. I respect that 100%, even if I may not agree with you on some things.


Well I think it is time for you to step outside of the family box and take a look into the Bible more, you don't have to practice religion to be a Christian, its about the faith. I don't mean to be rude, and I am sure you understand what I am trying to communicate, but I think when you read it, you were focusing to much on the text, and not very much on the whole concept, the whole bigger picture and idea of it. I am not sure if you mean your family, is if you are married/have children, but if you mean your family as in parents and such, don't you think you could take a look into things for yourself? I mean, my parents are Christians, trust me, not the greatest people, but they try. For so long I lived under what they believed and never made this faith my own. I finally have, and I take it for what its worth. You're incredibly smart, and your never ending answers and openness to what I say is just simply amazing. If you opened up the Bible and studied more about all this Christianity stuff you could one day be a great person in the work of the Lord.

I am not trying to group them together. It is my opinion. They all can be classified almost the same way. You're right, it takes many men to create something fast, but then again, you're being narrowminded and only looking through the bubble of human characteristics. And just so you know, cussing to me is pretty immature, I'd try lightening up because your tactics are quite rude and get you no where but on the back burner in my mind.


Fine, then according to you logic all Christians, Jews, Muslims, and any other religion that has a God in it can basically be classified the same way so they are basically the same thing.

I'm being narrow-minded? Tell how does evolution explain how humans came to be? Show me how open-minded you are by knowing both sides of the story.

Just because the bible talks about some actual events doesn't make the book in it's entirety true.

Oh, so Betty told you that..and you believe it. For real, where did you get this information from? Again, its your own human doubts.




Trevor, Rainfall never rained a perfect man, but God created one.
Merging doublepost
Fine, then according to you logic all Christians, Jews, Muslims, and any other religion that has a God in it can basically be classified the same way so they are basically the same thing. I'm being narrow-minded? Tell how does evolution explain how humans came to be? Show me how open-minded you are by knowing both sides of the story.

They are already classified as religions, but they don't believe the same thing. I am openminded. I know quite a bit about evolution, do I believe it? No. Should I sit here and explain what I don't believe? No. I don't have to prove to you that I do know it, because I know that I do, and I accepted it as false.

Trevor, Rainfall never rained a perfect man, but God created one.
What exactly does that have to do with my post?

And got any proof, that isn't the bible, that God created a perfect man? I say no bible because well, it just doesn't have much credibility to a non-beleiver.

If you opened up the Bible and studied more about all this Christianity stuff you could one day be a great person in the work of the Lord.

Do it Noj, work for the lord!

Maybe then I could debate someone who uses doesn't use feign arguments to prove his point

Oh, so Betty told you that..and you believe it. For real, where did you get this information from? Again, its your own human doubts.
I don't know who Betty is, but logic and reason told me this. Science told me this. Evidence told me this.

I'm reading a SciFi book that talks about the Warsaw Pact. Because the Warsaw Pact is real, and it accurately describes it, by your logic, the rest of the book can be true, too. I don't care that it talks about alien races, faster-than-light travel, sentient beings that are made up of philotes in a network of computers. It HAS to be true, because it talks about actual events as well.

They are already classified as religions, but they don't believe the same thing. I am openminded. I know quite a bit about evolution, do I believe it? No. Should I sit here and explain what I don't believe? No. I don't have to prove to you that I do know it, because I know that I do, and I accepted it as false.

Neither do humanism/atheism/agnosticism yet you said they were all the same thing. That's hypocrisy right there, humanism/atheism/agnosticism are similar so they are all the same thing but Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are similar but they aren't the same thing?

Really you know "quite a bit about evolution"? I find that hard to believe as in your previous post you went on to say evolution says we came from monkeys which it doesn't so that's one thing you've been wrong about on evolution.

Secondly you seem to be under the belief that evolution tries to explain how the universe came to be which it also doesn't try to do so another thing you were wrong about.

So tell me, how much do you know about evolution because from what you've said so far, not much.

Nick, I used to attend a Christian Church, on my own, when I was in my teens. It's called Unity, and the chapter I went to was in North Hollywood. Reverend Sheila M. Banta, a lovely redheaded British lady ran the show. Really nice sermons, relevant to the present day and reflecting Christianity in a loving, positive light. I know very well that Christianity can be a good thing. Rest assured, I have indeed investigated religion for myself.

I arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't for me, for specific reasons involving my understanding of world history and of the history of religions. I have a much more eclectic view of such things now, and feel there is knowledge to be gained from all religions.

Nick, I used to attend a Christian Church, on my own, when I was in my teens. It's called Unity, and the chapter I went to was in North Hollywood. Reverend Sheila M. Banta, a lovely redheaded British lady ran the show. Really nice sermons, relevant to the present day and reflecting Christianity in a loving, positive light. I know very well that Christianity can be a good thing. Rest assured, I have indeed investigated religion for myself.

I arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't for me, for specific reasons involving my understanding of world history and of the history of religions. I have a much more eclectic view of such things now, and feel there is knowledge to be gained from all religions.

You are correct, there is a lot to be gained from each religion, but if you take a step outside of the Christianity religion for a second, and take it one step further to faith, it is a whole different ball game.
Merging doublepost
Do it Noj, work for the lord!

Maybe then I could debate someone who uses doesn't use feign arguments to prove his point

I haven't argued with you once. I've seen you post pretty rude comments, remarks, and I've done nothing in return to be rude. You are funny yeah..I'll give you that, but when it comes down to these debates, I can't even take you seriously. Noj and Fremry are very knowledgable people. They knew/know how to debate without just throwing random insults down someones path.

Homosexual Christians is a ridiculous claim, they do not exist.
Really dude? Did you forget about the homosexual BISHOP? He was raised in a straight, religious family, and was extremely religious from birth. You should watch the film "For the Bible Tells Me So." It follows this guy's story; it's quite touching actually. He, as a dedicated follower of Jesus, fought his inner desires to be with a man through most of his life. Do you know what kind of psychological damage that does to a person? How can you say that's a choice? I hope and pray to every God in the universe that none of your kids turn out gay, because they'll most likely end up committing suicide because you'll tell them to "fight their inner sins" that they can't control. Oh and buddy, there are no texts in the Bible about homosexuality. The texts you'll find in the Bible about men lying with men are in reference to the perverted sexual tendencies of the Romans during the time in which those texts were written. They have absolutely nothing to do with same sex love/marriage/communal that we know of today. Homosexuality is absolutely not a choice. I don't know about you, but I don't wake up every morning and consciously choose to be attracted to women. I have absolutely no problem with people who are attracted to the same sex, and I wouldn't have any problem with myself if I happened to be that way. In fact, the only people who seem to have any interest in me at the moment are gay males, so it would actually be really convenient if I were gay or bisexual. However, I'm straight, meaning I'm only attracted to females, and I can't do anything about this. I don't understand how you can say that your sexuality is a choice, unless you yourself are consciously choosing to be straight. If this is the case, well, the closet door is wide open. You can come on out; we won't poke fun.

They have created a new Bible that actually REMOVES all text about homosexuality. God does not change for anyone, it's his way or the high way.
News flash: Every Christian on Earth omits parts of the Bible. Some parts just do not apply to us today because they contain ridiculous old-world rules. Like, have you ever read Leviticus in its entirety? Really? But worry not, my friend. This is why Jesus came. One of Jesus' main points was to not live your life according to rules, but instead to just have faith in Him and in God, be kind to your fellow man, and you will have a place in Heaven. Paul, arguably the second-most important figure in Christianity also argued this point. So I recommend that you either move to Jerusalem and start practicing orthodox Judaism, or you get a little up to date in your beliefs, because based off of what you've said here, you're still living by ancient Hebrew theology. Instead of just believing in Jesus, why don't you actually listen to what he said?

With that said, name one point that says that homosexuals can't be Christians, that they can't attain salvation, that what they're doing is wrong, and that they shouldn't be allowed to live normal and happy lives together.


P.S. sorry for digging up a fairly old post; I just clicked on this thread from the main page and it brought me to page 23. =[

You are correct, there is a lot to be gained from each religion, but if you take a step outside of the Christianity religion for a second, and take it one step further to faith, it is a whole different ball game.

In order for me to have faith as you describe it, I would have to surrender logical doubts I have in the authenticity of religion. I value logic too highly to do that.

Really dude? Did you forget about the homosexual BISHOP? He was raised in a straight, religious family, and was extremely religious from birth. You should watch the film "For the Bible Tells Me So." It follows this guy's story; it's quite touching actually. He, as a dedicated follower of Jesus, fought his inner desires to be with a man through most of his life. Do you know what kind of psychological damage that does to a person? How can you say that's a choice? I hope and pray to every God in the universe that none of your kids turn out gay, because they'll most likely end up committing suicide because you'll tell them to "fight their inner sins" that they can't control. Oh and buddy, there are no texts in the Bible about homosexuality. The texts you'll find in the Bible about men lying with men are in reference to the perverted sexual tendencies of the Romans during the time in which those texts were written. They have absolutely nothing to do with same sex love/marriage/communal that we know of today. Homosexuality is absolutely not a choice. I don't know about you, but I don't wake up every morning and consciously choose to be attracted to women. I have absolutely no problem with people who are attracted to the same sex, and I wouldn't have any problem with myself if I happened to be that way. In fact, the only people who seem to have any interest in me at the moment are gay males, so it would actually be really convenient if I were gay or bisexual. However, I'm straight, meaning I'm only attracted to females, and I can't do anything about this. I don't understand how you can say that your sexuality is a choice, unless you yourself are consciously choosing to be straight. If this is the case, well, the closet door is wide open. You can come on out; we won't poke fun.

One problem with that theory. The "men lying with men as with women" thing was written HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE ROMAN SENATE EVEN EXISTED, let alone the empire. Even if you don't believe it, it was written at some time long before even the Persians took over Mesopotamia and other regions. More LESS the Romans and their empire. And EVEN THEN it was called an abomination. Multiple times throughout the Bible it talks about marriage between A MAN AND A WOMAN. Never between a man and a man nor a woman and a woman. This alone should tell you that there cannot be a gay Christian. Maybe a gay hypocrite, but NEVER a gay Christian.

News flash: Every Christian on Earth omits parts of the Bible. Some parts just do not apply to us today because they contain ridiculous old-world rules. Like, have you ever read Leviticus in its entirety? Really? But worry not, my friend. This is why Jesus came. One of Jesus' main points was to not live your life according to rules, but instead to just have faith in Him and in God, be kind to your fellow man, and you will have a place in Heaven. Paul, arguably the second-most important figure in Christianity also argued this point. So I recommend that you either move to Jerusalem and start practicing orthodox Judaism, or you get a little up to date in your beliefs, because based off of what you've said here, you're still living by ancient Hebrew theology. Instead of just believing in Jesus, why don't you actually listen to what he said?

With that said, name one point that says that homosexuals can't be Christians, that they can't attain salvation, that what they're doing is wrong, and that they shouldn't be allowed to live normal and happy lives together.


P.S. sorry for digging up a fairly old post; I just clicked on this thread from the main page and it brought me to page 23. =[

For the Paul thing, take a look at one of his own writings, Romans. Read over Romans 6. It basically says that though we are saved by grace, "God forbid" that we live in sin, for how can a child of light live in darkness, was the figure of speech he used for it. And one point? The fact that the Bible says straight up that the sexually immoral shall not enter into the kingdom of God. And the gay bishop in the above part? If he truly took it to Jesus, I PROMISE you on MY LIFE, MY SOUL, AND MY ACCOUNT ON HERE that he would have been completely set free of even the attraction, because that's what Jesus does. And also, I agree it isn't a choice, but to differ I believe it's entirly demonic, and not in the least genetic.
Merging doublepost
^ This is precisely what I mean by narrow minded.

• We don't care what you believe (as you claim), we care about using your beliefs as FACTS
• You make another dumb generalization that people who disbeleief in God do so only because their attempt to please themselves - wtf??

No, we disbelief in God because of the lack of evidence (im sorry, no evidence)

• You say

That's equivallent to EVERYTHING ELSE THAT DOESNT EXIST - You can not disprove something that doesnt exist. I mean, how many times does this have to be said?

No offense razz, but you've been getting really rude lately on here. You were a good debator for a while, respectable at least. Now you're being all mean and more narrow-minded yourself than you claim we are. And I'm going to play on what you just said at the bottom there. You cannot disprove something that doesn't exist. OK, tell me, how do you know that the evidence you have is really evidence for your point or not? Hm. You form a belief that God is inexistant and say constantly, even when we give other reference, something like "OMG YOU USED THE BIBLE AS REFERENCE. EVEN IF YOU HAVE OTHER POINTS THERE IS NO WAY YOUR POINT CAN BE VALID!" Take a look now...at the Matrix. I'm sure you've seen the movie, but even if not, the concept. How do you know that every bit of evidence around you is nothing but a lie, and that everything we feel, see, touch, smell, and etc. are nothing more than virtual reality so to speak. Prove this to me from science. I find it very unlikely that you could. Ok, with this said, no evidence constitues a fact. Because there is no proof that this universe or even your past even exists (you could've been put in less than a few seconds ago with memories already engraved in your mind), make your arguments. Now that we have that settled, I'll say this, I have nothing against you saying not to use the Bible straight up. That's understandable. But when you get ticked and start saying that we are narrow-minded buffoons when we use the Bible PLUS additional stuff added to it, then all you are doing is showing serious immaturity. I had no reason until just a couple weeks ago to even dare think you immature razz, but these last few weeks you've been debating in a more immature way then my little brother, and he's 10.

One problem with that theory. The "men lying with men as with women" thing was written HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE ROMAN SENATE EVEN EXISTED, let alone the empire. Even if you don't believe it, it was written at some time long before even the Persians took over Mesopotamia and other regions. More LESS the Romans and their empire. And EVEN THEN it was called an abomination. Multiple times throughout the Bible it talks about marriage between A MAN AND A WOMAN. Never between a man and a man nor a woman and a woman. This alone should tell you that there cannot be a gay Christian. Maybe a gay hypocrite, but NEVER a gay Christian.
The Roman Republic started at around 500 B.C., about the exact same time that the sources of Leviticus were written. Leviticus as part of the Torah wasn't written until 100 years AFTER the Roman Republic was established. Check up on your history before you go busting your caps lock all over me. But anyway, I sure hope you've been staying away from pork, because otherwise (according to your theology) you've been living a life of sin, and you won't find a place in Heaven.


For the Paul thing, take a look at one of his own writings, Romans. Read over Romans 6. It basically says that though we are saved by grace, "God forbid" that we live in sin, for how can a child of light live in darkness, was the figure of speech he used for it. And one point? The fact that the Bible says straight up that the sexually immoral shall not enter into the kingdom of God. And the gay bishop in the above part? If he truly took it to Jesus, I PROMISE you on MY LIFE, MY SOUL, AND MY ACCOUNT ON HERE that he would have been completely set free of even the attraction, because that's what Jesus does. And also, I agree it isn't a choice, but to differ I believe it's entirly demonic, and not in the least genetic.
It seems that your entire argument here relies on the "fact" that homosexuality is sexually malicious and immoral. How/why do you say that? The Bible says nothing on homosexuality as we know it today. And how can you say that the bishop didn't take it to Jesus? He got perfect attendance his entire life in Bible study; he grew up being 100x more religious than you'll ever be (not that it's a contest, I'm just saying). And obviously he DID take it before Jesus, seeing as that he became a BISHOP! His whole life is dedicated to religion. Plus, I trust the decisions of the holy church officials over yours, and obviously they felt that he was suitable to be a high representative of the church. So I guess you'd might as well delete your Skaterscafe account. I have dibs on your soul... someone else can have your life! and F.Y.I. by saying that you don't agree that it's genetic, you're disagreeing with most professional medical and genetic research associations. Just sayin'. Do you believe that lepers are possessed too?

Multiple times throughout the Bible it talks about marriage between A MAN AND A WOMAN. Never between a man and a man nor a woman and a woman. This alone should tell you that there cannot be a gay Christian. Maybe a gay hypocrite, but NEVER a gay Christian.

How does the bible referencing marriage as to a man and a woman, tell us that there can not be a homosexual christian?

I'm sorry izzy, but thats just stupid. Because a man and a woman are the ones who usually get married, it completely disowns the fact that a homosexual can beleive in God too? How can you not see the stupidity in what your claiming?

In order for me to have faith as you describe it, I would have to surrender logical doubts I have in the authenticity of religion. I value logic too highly to do that.



Or you would have to let go of the fact that you dout religion, and put faith in God. Im not talking from a religion point of view. There is doubts in many religions. There is life in Jesus Christ.

No can do, brother. Never have been much for looking past facts.

Really dude? Did you forget about the homosexual BISHOP? He was raised in a straight, religious family, and was extremely religious from birth. You should watch the film "For the Bible Tells Me So." It follows this guy's story; it's quite touching actually. He, as a dedicated follower of Jesus, fought his inner desires to be with a man through most of his life. Do you know what kind of psychological damage that does to a person? How can you say that's a choice? I hope and pray to every God in the universe that none of your kids turn out gay, because they'll most likely end up committing suicide because you'll tell them to "fight their inner sins" that they can't control. Oh and buddy, there are no texts in the Bible about homosexuality. The texts you'll find in the Bible about men lying with men are in reference to the perverted sexual tendencies of the Romans during the time in which those texts were written. They have absolutely nothing to do with same sex love/marriage/communal that we know of today. Homosexuality is absolutely not a choice. I don't know about you, but I don't wake up every morning and consciously choose to be attracted to women. I have absolutely no problem with people who are attracted to the same sex, and I wouldn't have any problem with myself if I happened to be that way. In fact, the only people who seem to have any interest in me at the moment are gay males, so it would actually be really convenient if I were gay or bisexual. However, I'm straight, meaning I'm only attracted to females, and I can't do anything about this. I don't understand how you can say that your sexuality is a choice, unless you yourself are consciously choosing to be straight. If this is the case, well, the closet door is wide open. You can come on out; we won't poke fun.


News flash: Every Christian on Earth omits parts of the Bible. Some parts just do not apply to us today because they contain ridiculous old-world rules. Like, have you ever read Leviticus in its entirety? Really? But worry not, my friend. This is why Jesus came. One of Jesus' main points was to not live your life according to rules, but instead to just have faith in Him and in God, be kind to your fellow man, and you will have a place in Heaven. Paul, arguably the second-most important figure in Christianity also argued this point. So I recommend that you either move to Jerusalem and start practicing orthodox Judaism, or you get a little up to date in your beliefs, because based off of what you've said here, you're still living by ancient Hebrew theology. Instead of just believing in Jesus, why don't you actually listen to what he said?

With that said, name one point that says that homosexuals can't be Christians, that they can't attain salvation, that what they're doing is wrong, and that they shouldn't be allowed to live normal and happy lives together.


P.S. sorry for digging up a fairly old post; I just clicked on this thread from the main page and it brought me to page 23. =[

1CO 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Who is foolish to believe in Jesus and have faith, but not abide by his rules?


Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) but a fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation..

Many Bibles omit and change verses, and that's why I will only use King James Version, and the New King James Version. I don't take a church seriously if they don't use either of those 2. These are bad times my friend, and the Bible speaks clearly on many false religions (oh so many, many, many, even some "Christian" denominations"), prophets (Bishops - I don't take catholic religion very seriously, because they don't take God's word seriously!), and converts (Fake Christians, or people who fake following God - see the Pharisees)

I got Izzy's back 100% on everything he's said, because I know he's a true Christian, and I can tell the Holy Spirit is workin through him, tryin to reach ou to you guys and spread the truth! One point I want to specifically point out is if the bishop took his issues to the Lord. There's plenty of scripture on doing this and God assisting us with our problems, PM me I'll be glad to look some verses up for you.

Wow, why are you guys making stupid claims such as gays can't be Christians? Seriously, that is totally wrong in every aspect. Anyone can be a Christian, our god accepts any person from any walk of life. Do not, and I mean DO NOT judge anyone, they will be judged when it comes down to the end, but you are not God, and you should not judge anyone, no matter who they are. Christians are taught to be respectful, and to love thy neighbor, but you guys are saying that gays can't be Christians? Anyone and everyone can be a Christian if they choose to believe in God and have a relationship with him. Let God judge who the real Christians are, not yourselves.

Many Bibles omit and change verses, and that's why I will only use King James Version, and the New King James Version. I don't take a church seriously if they don't use either of those 2. These are bad times my friend, and the Bible speaks clearly on many false religions (oh so many, many, many, even some "Christian" denominations"), prophets (Bishops - I don't take catholic religion very seriously, because they don't take God's word seriously!), and converts (Fake Christians, or people who fake following God - see the Pharisees)

I got Izzy's back 100% on everything he's said, because I know he's a true Christian, and I can tell the Holy Spirit is workin through him, tryin to reach ou to you guys and spread the truth! One point I want to specifically point out is if the bishop took his issues to the Lord. There's plenty of scripture on doing this and God assisting us with our problems, PM me I'll be glad to look some verses up for you.
I really can't tell if you're joking about only reading the King James Version, because that's honestly one of the silliest things I've ever heard. Do you know when it was written, and who wrote it? It was written in 1611, which means it was interpreted from the Hebrew Bible and the Septuagint... as they were understood in 1611. May I remind you that this was before they even found the Dead Sea Scrolls? The Bible is an ever changing book, because we're constantly searching for a better understanding of it. Try reading a Bible that will help you interpret it and put it in its historical context, like say, the Harvard Annotated Bible. This will help you from being stuck in the Middle Ages. Do you realize that the Bible you read was written in the place and just after the time of the Crusades? The King James Bible was the first authentic translation of the Bible from the Hebrew Bible, but we've since developed a far better understanding of the Hebrew people and their Bible. It's time to step out of the Middle Ages, seriously.

And how can you connect the term "homosexual offenders" as it was used in the times of Paul to the modern definition of homosexuality? They're obviously not the same thing, and it would take a fool to not see this. You've still only proven to me that 1)The classic definition of sexually deviant homosexuals are sinners and 2)Sinners go to Hell. You've still failed to connect the two in the context of modern homosexuality, because there is no way that you can prove through the Bible that genetic homosexuality is a sin. The Hebrews didn't know a thing about genes. They also blamed epilepsy on demons. If you adopt the Hebrews' view of homosexuality as being deviant, then why don't you accept their view of being epileptic as being deviant as well?

Wow, why are you guys making stupid claims such as gays can't be Christians? Seriously, that is totally wrong in every aspect. Anyone can be a Christian, our god accepts any person from any walk of life. Do not, and I mean DO NOT judge anyone, they will be judged when it comes down to the end, but you are not God, and you should not judge anyone, no matter who they are. Christians are taught to be respectful, and to love thy neighbor, but you guys are saying that gays can't be Christians? Anyone and everyone can be a Christian if they choose to believe in God and have a relationship with him. Let God judge who the real Christians are, not yourselves.
I wish all christians were like you.

Every post I see from you, I want to rep you for it.

^Agreed also, I may not agree with you on religious beliefs but at least you have respect for all people despite what the Bible says. +rep

Wow, why are you guys making stupid claims such as gays can't be Christians? Seriously, that is totally wrong in every aspect. Anyone can be a Christian, our god accepts any person from any walk of life. Do not, and I mean DO NOT judge anyone, they will be judged when it comes down to the end, but you are not God, and you should not judge anyone, no matter who they are. Christians are taught to be respectful, and to love thy neighbor, but you guys are saying that gays can't be Christians? Anyone and everyone can be a Christian if they choose to believe in God and have a relationship with him. Let God judge who the real Christians are, not yourselves.

To answer you and Zero at the same time, the reason gays can't be Christians? Because it is a lifestyle of sin. WE aren't to judge anyone or we will be judged by the same degree (Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again") Yes, we aren't to judge, but when your neighbor is sinning, we are most DEFINITELY to tell them. (Mat. 18:15-17;Eze 3:17-21) Not to mention 1 Cor. 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." How do we come by this is we avoid "judging others" so to speak. Big difference. God will judge, but if we don't warn them that they will be judged for their sin, then their blood is on our hands.

To answer you and Zero at the same time, the reason gays can't be Christians? Because it is a lifestyle of sin. WE aren't to judge anyone or we will be judged by the same degree (Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again") Yes, we aren't to judge, but when your neighbor is sinning, we are most DEFINITELY to tell them. (Mat. 18:15-17;Eze 3:17-21) Not to mention 1 Cor. 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." How do we come by this is we avoid "judging others" so to speak. Big difference. God will judge, but if we don't warn them that they will be judged for their sin, then their blood is on our hands.
Buddy, do you have any idea what the suicide rate is in young homosexuals who grow up in Christian households? Their blood is certainly in your hands... in a much more physical sense than you supposed. Homosexuality is not what it was in the Bible (read my last post, save us both some time, please), it is genetic.

^I agree

ZeroSkater1223 went from the guy who said "I know 100% for sure that God exists no matter what" to someone who now acknowledges other opinions and uses a lot more rational and logic...

Quite possibly one of the more astute Christians on the forums...

No offense razz, but you've been getting really rude lately on here. You were a good debator for a while, respectable at least. Now you're being all mean and more narrow-minded yourself than you claim we are. And I'm going to play on what you just said at the bottom there. You cannot disprove something that doesn't exist. OK, tell me, how do you know that the evidence you have is really evidence for your point or not? Hm. You form a belief that God is inexistant and say constantly, even when we give other reference, something like "OMG YOU USED THE BIBLE AS REFERENCE. EVEN IF YOU HAVE OTHER POINTS THERE IS NO WAY YOUR POINT CAN BE VALID!" Take a look now...at the Matrix. I'm sure you've seen the movie, but even if not, the concept. How do you know that every bit of evidence around you is nothing but a lie, and that everything we feel, see, touch, smell, and etc. are nothing more than virtual reality so to speak. Prove this to me from science. I find it very unlikely that you could. Ok, with this said, no evidence constitues a fact. Because there is no proof that this universe or even your past even exists (you could've been put in less than a few seconds ago with memories already engraved in your mind), make your arguments. Now that we have that settled, I'll say this, I have nothing against you saying not to use the Bible straight up. That's understandable. But when you get ticked and start saying that we are narrow-minded buffoons when we use the Bible PLUS additional stuff added to it, then all you are doing is showing serious immaturity. I had no reason until just a couple weeks ago to even dare think you immature razz, but these last few weeks you've been debating in a more immature way then my little brother, and he's 10.

Izzy, I don't mind debate...

Just, when your proof involves your own experiences and a book...well, can you see where I'm coming from?

You cannot disprove something that doesn't exist. OK, tell me, how do you know that the evidence you have is really evidence for your point or not?

Give me an example, this makes no sense to me...also, what were the other references for your proof of God? Was it evidence or an indirect correlation (ie: look at nature it's God! it's God!)

I got Izzy's back 100% on everything he's said, because I know he's a true Christian, and I can tell the Holy Spirit is workin through him, tryin to reach ou to you guys and spread the truth!

Can I ask you something...I'll try to be as polite as possible considering the sheer stupidity in that post...

Do you believe that 'truth' to you is the same thing as 'truth' to me and to everyone else? I don't believe you actually understand what 'truth' actually means...

There's plenty of scripture on doing this and God assisting us with our problems, PM me I'll be glad to look some verses up for you.

You ask for PM's in every post...are you just some kind of attention whore?

To answer you and Zero at the same time, the reason gays can't be Christians? Because it is a lifestyle of sin. WE aren't to judge anyone or we will be judged by the same degree (Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again") Yes, we aren't to judge, but when your neighbor is sinning, we are most DEFINITELY to tell them. (Mat. 18:15-17;Eze 3:17-21) Not to mention 1 Cor. 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." How do we come by this is we avoid "judging others" so to speak. Big difference. God will judge, but if we don't warn them that they will be judged for their sin, then their blood is on our hands.
I really hope one of your kids doesn't turn out gay. He'll probably kill himself.

Buddy, do you have any idea what the suicide rate is in young homosexuals who grow up in Christian households? Their blood is certainly in your hands... in a much more physical sense than you supposed. Homosexuality is not what it was in the Bible (read my last post, save us both some time, please), it is genetic.

And did you read my post in reply. Maybe homosexuallity in the New Testament, which related to the time period you described. But the first reference was written plenty before hand.

^I agree

ZeroSkater1223 went from the guy who said "I know 100% for sure that God exists no matter what" to someone who now acknowledges other opinions and uses a lot more rational and logic...

Quite possibly one of the more astute Christians on the forums...



Izzy, I don't mind debate...

Just, when your proof involves your own experiences and a book...well, can you see where I'm coming from?



Give me an example, this makes no sense to me...also, what were the other references for your proof of God? Was it evidence or an indirect correlation (ie: look at nature it's God! it's God!)



Can I ask you something...I'll try to be as polite as possible considering the sheer stupidity in that post...

Do you believe that 'truth' to you is the same thing as 'truth' to me and to everyone else? I don't believe you actually understand what 'truth' actually means...



You ask for PM's in every post...are you just some kind of attention whore?

Razz, the part that didn't make sense, I was referring to the Matrix, which I said a bit farther down in the post. Sorry I didn't make it more clear :). And on the whole truth thing, since when is truth relative. Just because of a different belief system doesn't change what really is.

No can do, brother. Never have been much for looking past facts.

Well, It is a fact that a perfect man walked this Earth. If that doesn't relate to humans, then I don't know what does.


:)
Merging doublepost
I really hope one of your kids doesn't turn out gay. He'll probably kill himself.



He wouldn't turn out gay, he would follow the sin of homosexuality. It could happen. People rebel and follow what they want because it is pleasing to them.

Well, It is a fact that a perfect man walked this Earth. If that doesn't relate to humans, then I don't know what does.


:)


It's a fact according to the people who wrote the Bible, who heard the stories which were told by word of mouth for decades on end after Jesus died, who Christians trust did not embellish the truth in the least despite the inclusion of impossibly miraculous feats flying in the face of all that is naturally possible...

See what I mean? Maybe you trust people that much, but I do not.

Actually, the stories of Jesus, were written by the people who were with him the most. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to say the least.

^Just one thing I wanted to point out. I like how you have completely ignored me pointing out how you've shown you so much about evolution. Ignoring things doesn't make them go away.

Neither do humanism/atheism/agnosticism yet you said they were all the same thing. That's hypocrisy right there, humanism/atheism/agnosticism are similar so they are all the same thing but Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are similar but they aren't the same thing?

Really you know "quite a bit about evolution"? I find that hard to believe as in your previous post you went on to say evolution says we came from monkeys which it doesn't so that's one thing you've been wrong about on evolution.

Secondly you seem to be under the belief that evolution tries to explain how the universe came to be which it also doesn't try to do so another thing you were wrong about.

So tell me, how much do you know about evolution because from what you've said so far, not much.

I actually know a lot about. Have I always been a Christian? No.

Do I feel like explaining it all, when I could care less about what they believe? No. You know why? Because I have already choose my faith. I ignored it, because you're not even debating good. If you want to find out about evolution, go search it on google, Im not explaining something I could care less about.

And did you read my post in reply. Maybe homosexuallity in the New Testament, which related to the time period you described. But the first reference was written plenty before hand.
New Testament? You aren't reading my posts. I was talking about Leviticus... part of the freaking Torah! It was one of the first books ever written! Can you please read my posts? I'll say it one more time, for your own sake... The Roman Republic was established sometime around 500 B.C.. The sources for Leviticus (the book that most Christians site in reference to homosexuality), were written at around this time as well. Leviticus as a book and part of the Torah was written at around 400 B.C.. I don't see where the confusion is.

Actually, the stories of Jesus, were written by the people who were with him the most. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to say the least.
I don't mean to nit-pick, but the four Gospels were all written between 20 and 50 years after Jesus died, and most of them were written under surnames. I'm not saying they're not valid, but they were even written in different places. They're also filled with inconsistencies and contradictions, such as Mark's story of the Sermon on the Mount and Luke's story of the Sermon on the Plain. Mark also says that divorce shouldn't be allowed under any circumstances, and Matthew says that divorce shouldn't be allowed except in cases of adultery. I'm not trying to be a d!ck... on the contrary, I'm trying to make you guys think about the book that you follow, and there's nothing wrong with that. It wasn't written to be taken literally.

Actually, the stories of Jesus, were written by the people who were with him the most. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to say the least.


Matthew

Attributed to Matthew. Probably written sometime between AD 55 and 75.

Mark

Attributed to John Mark. Probably written before AD 70, and before the books of Matthew or Luke were composed.

Luke

Attributed to Luke. Since the book of Acts (also attributed to Luke) was written afterward, and since Acts was apparently written before Paul's execution during the reign of Nero, the book of Luke is apparently relatively early, perhaps before AD 60.

John

Attributed to John. Probably composed between AD 85 and 90, though some scholars have suggested dates as early as AD 45 and as late as AD 110.

Acts

Attributed to Luke. Probably composed around AD 64 (Paul's imprisonment in Rome was from AD 61-63).


I found the above info on a theology site. Looks to me like all of the above were written at least 45 years after Jesus was killed, and all are listed as "attributed to." "Attributed to?" That phrase invites doubt that these were actually written by who it is claimed they were written by. Even if they were in fact the authors, the very fact that it was written by people gives me the most serious reason to doubt the authenticity of the stories. Without hesitation I fall on the side of caution with disbelief at that fact alone. Four decades is plenty of time for folks to play telephone with the facts of Jesus' story.

I actually know a lot about. Have I always been a Christian? No.

Do I feel like explaining it all, when I could care less about what they believe? No. You know why? Because I have already choose my faith. I ignored it, because you're not even debating good. If you want to find out about evolution, go search it on google, Im not explaining something I could care less about.

You seem to be avoiding the point of my posts, I'm not asking you for information on evolution because I want to find out about evolution, I'm asking because I want to know how much you really know because from your previous posts it seems not much. This would make you a hypocrite as you are calling others narrow-minded when you haven't taken a complete look into both sides yourself.

There are two big misconceptions you have already made, one:

I know, you know in your heart that you know there is more to this life. Just because I didn't see the builder of my house, doesn't mean it evolved, I know it was built. If we actually followed our own physical laws, we'd realize that things are made/built, and not just evolving, or whatever the new scientists are trying to put in motion now. Scienctists can't even speak of "Intelligent Design". What has this world come to?
I think it is fair to say that you were making a comparison between a house and the Earth. You say evolution couldn't have made the house/Earth. There is your first misconception, evolution does not try to explain the creation of the Earth/universe it only explains how organisms slowly evolved over billions of years. How much do you know about evolution?

Second misconception:

Since when can't the truth be science? Is something being created not science? Or is it because us humans can't even begin to wrap our minds around God, so we just stay in our bubble and stick to what we know which only relates with humans. That is a rediculous thing. If we could have come from monkeys, why couldn't God have created us? Oh..because monkeys live on Earth, and kinda look like my brother, so it must have been the only way we got here! Even thought the Bible is acurrately true and gives nicely layed out recordings of events that are proven in this world. Hence, tower of Babel, limestone on mountains. Yes, I am familiar with plate techtonics, and no I don't think it caused limestone on mountains.
You seem to be under the impression that humans came from monkeys. Once again wrong, we came from common ancestors millions of years back but different variation among the species caused a split leading to two the different species we see today. How much do you really know about evolution?

There I have pointed out two major mistakes you have made about evolution when you claim to be knowledgeable of it so I will ask you this question one more time. How much do you really know about evolution that makes you so "open-minded"?

Noj, just to clarify your hypothesis on the "attributed to" thing: Most of the people whom those books are attributed to are highly doubted by most biblical scholars today, such as John Mark.

Actually, the stories of Jesus, were written by the people who were with him the most. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John to say the least.

Excuse me? Paul wrote more about Jesus' life than anyone else and never even met him...

I don't think you've been reading the Bible as much as you claim...

Excuse me? Paul wrote more about Jesus' life than anyone else and never even met him...

I don't think you've been reading the Bible as much as you claim...



I think you're forgetting about Paul's road to Damascus experience. God talked to Paul personally. What more could you do?



And what about the rest? huh?

God talked to Paul personally. What more could you do?

Wait, I thought God didn't talk to people personally?

At least 2 people on this forum have told me that, now I'm confused.

I think you're forgetting about Paul's road to Damascus experience. God talked to Paul personally. What more could you do?



And what about the rest? huh?

Right, but you said:

Actually, the stories of Jesus, were written by the people who were with him the most.

Paul was not with him...

If you're going to speak metaphorically in terms of God then I guess all the authors of the Bible are applicable, which defeats the purpose of your post anyway

He ignored my post again.

Right, but you said:



Paul was not with him...

If you're going to speak metaphorically in terms of God then I guess all the authors of the Bible are applicable, which defeats the purpose of your post anyway

Hey, I gave an example of who I was talking about. I never mentioned Paul.



And shortys, Read about Pauls road to Damascus experience.

He ignored it again.

I think he's just ignoring you in general, now. haha.

Well, people don't like being proven wrong. It just really annoyed me when to me he was showing such blatant hypocrisy. He was calling others narrow-minded for not looking at both sides of the situation yet it looks as though he has not done the same thing himself.

I think he's just ignoring logic all together, he conveniently responds to the points that make him look the least-stupid

Well, people don't like being proven wrong. It just really annoyed me when to me he was showing such blatant hypocrisy. He was calling others narrow-minded for not looking at both sides of the situation yet it looks as though he has not done the same thing himself.

sorry, i was busy evolving. You're right, I know nothing. I just chose christianity because God makes me feel fluffy, you're correct.


razz, if I ignored logic I would have outweighted God along time ago.

^Again you're ignoring the point of my post, I'm not trying calling you a stupid Christian that follows the Bible blindly. I've asked the question many times already. I've pointed out that you have been wrong on two major points about evolution. You went around calling others narrow-minded for not looking at both sides of the argument but it looks like you're the narrow-minded one. So one more time. How much do you really know about evolution that makes you so "open-minded"?

What do you want to know? Honestly...what do you want me to tell you about evolution?


I am not ignoring you bud, I just can't quite understand what you want. If it helps, I can tell you how I was before:

I am 17. I never knew Jesus Christ as my personal savior until I was 14. I went through a lot, I was just an all around no moral kid. I never did anything completely wrong, but I just was terrible. My girlfriends mom died..and It kinda hit me...like.."What the hell am I living for" I said to myself..I was pissed...I just couldn't figure myself out (natural teen feelings, yes) but then my mom had a tumor in her eye. It was the worst, more terrible thing to even conprehend. I couldn't even tell anyone...I just couldn't turn to everyone because I felt as if, if I go to my girlfriend ...she might just feel crappy because of her mom...if I go to my dad..he'll tell me she is alright. My friends would just tell me "its ok" stuff like that. I picked up the Bible and just began to read. For the next week I literally prayed my fricking butt off because I was to the point where I couldn't do anything else. My mom went to the doctor..and they said it was as if nothing was every there. She came home and told us....Honestly...I just broke down and never looked back again. Someone up there was looking out for her, and not only here, all my brothers and my sisters. ever since then..it basically has been an eye opening experience.


I can be completely honest with you, I don't know A LOT about evolution, I just know the main points and did some research on the missing link for myself and such..and never believed it. Before I became a Christian..I guess you could call me agnostic, and I didn't believe evolution..and I didnt really believe in God all to much.






I am openminded BECAUSE, I can look outside of just what humans can relate too. But then again that is why God sent Jesus, so we can relate to it.

It's nice to hear that your mother is ok and the Bible provided a moral outlook for your life, you don't know how much I appreciate hearing that.

That being said, you must also understand that a Muslim som