I stumbled across an interesting scripture a couple weeks ago, and I was wondering what you thought of it:

1 Timothy 4: 1-4

"However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods ('meat' in King James - see below) which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth."

and another, Matthew 23:9

"Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One."


Isn't this all stuff that Catholics do? Priests, who are called 'father,' are forbidden to marry, and meat is supposed to be off-limits on Fridays during Lent, right? According to that first scripture, those are the 'teachings of demons.'

Have you ever seen this before? Is there some sort of explanation? I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone here, I'm just wondering.








for anyone wondering, here's the King James. It's basically the same thing

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving"

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

Not a Catholic, but good point. Not to offend anyone, but I've read this quote before and I pretty much believe it.

"I know the Catholic church can't be the true church because how can any organization of truth claim to follow a book that is completely contradictory to what they teach and practice."

Or something like that. But yeah. I could go on and on into that, but you're right. The Catholic church (as a whole. There are some Catholic people who have a true relationship with God, but not very many) is full of hypocrisy.

Not a Catholic, but good point. Not to offend anyone, but I've read this quote before and I pretty much believe it.

"I know the Catholic church can't be the true church because how can any organization of truth claim to follow a book that is completely contradictory to what they teach and practice."

Or something like that. But yeah. I could go on and on into that, but you're right. The Catholic church (as a whole. There are some Catholic people who have a true relationship with God, but not very many) is full of hypocrisy.

Wow dude....your the hypocrite. I'm Catholic, does that mean I don't believe in God? Does that mean I'm a fake? I guess I don't have a strong relationship with God, I mean if you say so. Wow.....Catholics, of all Christian religions, probably have the strongest relationship with God. We follow most of his requests and teahcings, where Protestants, Methodists, etc. change them around and do whatever they feel and say thats what God wanted, where it really isn't at all.

So, do you have an answer?

Wow dude....your the hypocrite. I'm Catholic, does that mean I don't believe in God? Does that mean I'm a fake? I guess I don't have a strong relationship with God, I mean if you say so. Wow.....Catholics, of all Christian religions, probably have the strongest relationship with God. We follow most of his requests and teahcings, where Protestants, Methodists, etc. change them around and do whatever they feel and say thats what God wanted, where it really isn't at all.

Not saying your fake. I said there were some Catholics with a true relationship with God. Catholicism speaks of religious works to be saved. A man is saved by faith. "And the just shall live by faith." I do know a few true Catholics, but much more than some protestant denomination Catholicism places a huge role on non-biblical ceremonies and "prayer to the saints." Paul spoke against being under a law, but that one was saved by faith, and the Holy Spirit would teach you what to do. As far as praying to the saints to reach God, that's even more wrong. Jesus says we have direct access through the father by him, because he who loves the Son loves the Father also, and he who loves the Son is loved by the Father. It's in John when Jesus speaks to his disciples before his death. Nowhere in the Bible does it even speak of any Christian being greater than another, to be canonized as a saint. Believers as a whole are mentioned as saints. Also I could mention people who have been saints in the Catholic church who lived very sinful life styles. I could go on and on. But most of all, it's that Catholicism supports religion, whereas it's not about religion at all, but relationship. Anyone without a relationship with Jesus, religious or not, will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. And not just a normal relationship, but a very intimate relationship. Remember, he's our fiance. And also, even if you follow most of his teachings, study up on it a bit. Many of the Catholic beliefs of today were started by Constantine...the biggest hypocrite ever. I actually watch a vid on him once (history channel vid). As he "worshipped" God, he continued through his entire life to worship Appollo, the Sun god of the Romans. And MANY of your practices were started by him and are completely not in line with the Bible. I don't mean to attack Catholic people, but just Catholicism as the religion. I'm sorry you were offended.

Catholicism places a huge role on non-biblical ceremonies

reference: New Catholic Encyclopedia - the church “holds no truth on the basis of Scripture alone, independently of tradition, nor on the basis of tradition alone, independently of Scripture.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”

As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.

Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.

The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”

In their foreword to the teaching document, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.

They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.

The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council document explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”

A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.

That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”

Father Aron, start your own church and build a halfpipe and a bunch of benches and rails. I'd join.

And the Tigers were very, very angry, but still they would not let go of each other's tails.

And they were so angry, that they ran round the tree, trying to eat each other up, and they ran faster and faster, till they were whirling round so fast that you couldn't see their legs at all.
And they still ran faster and faster and faster, till they all just melted away, and there was nothing left but a great big pool of melted butter (or "ghi," as it is called in India) round the foot of the tree. Now Black Jumbo was just coming home from his work, with a great big brass pot in his arms, and when he saw what was left of all the Tigers he said, "Oh! what lovely melted butter! I'll take that home to Black Mumbo for her to cook with."

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm

Uhhhh.... I was baptized Catholic under the name of Jesus...... But I just consider myself a Christian..... That was a good read Aron :)

I reckon that the term "Father" is used because normal lay people use the priest as a substitute Jesus to say the mass, do the Eucharist etc...


Not saying your fake. I said there were some Catholics with a true relationship with God. Catholicism speaks of religious works to be saved. A man is saved by faith. "And the just shall live by faith." I do know a few true Catholics, but much more than some protestant denomination Catholicism places a huge role on non-biblical ceremonies and "prayer to the saints." Paul spoke against being under a law, but that one was saved by faith, and the Holy Spirit would teach you what to do. As far as praying to the saints to reach God, that's even more wrong. Jesus says we have direct access through the father by him, because he who loves the Son loves the Father also, and he who loves the Son is loved by the Father. It's in John when Jesus speaks to his disciples before his death. Nowhere in the Bible does it even speak of any Christian being greater than another, to be canonized as a saint. Believers as a whole are mentioned as saints. Also I could mention people who have been saints in the Catholic church who lived very sinful life styles. I could go on and on. But most of all, it's that Catholicism supports religion, whereas it's not about religion at all, but relationship. Anyone without a relationship with Jesus, religious or not, will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. And not just a normal relationship, but a very intimate relationship. Remember, he's our fiance. And also, even if you follow most of his teachings, study up on it a bit. Many of the Catholic beliefs of today were started by Constantine...the biggest hypocrite ever. I actually watch a vid on him once (history channel vid). As he "worshipped" God, he continued through his entire life to worship Appollo, the Sun god of the Romans. And MANY of your practices were started by him and are completely not in line with the Bible. I don't mean to attack Catholic people, but just Catholicism as the religion. I'm sorry you were offended.

But isn't pretty much ALL christian religion (especially most protestant religions) based on Catrholicism?

I reckon that the term "Father" is used because normal lay people use the priest as a substitute Jesus to say the mass, do the Eucharist etc...




But isn't pretty much ALL christian religion (especially most protestant religions) based on Catrholicism?
? I've noticed a HUGE difference in the majority of protestant denominations from Catholicism.

1.)Don't accept the pope as an authoritative figure
2.)Don't believe you have to go to a priest for confession of sin
3.)Don't pray to saints
4.)Don't believe in purgatory
5.)Don't believe in infant baptism

There's 5, and there are MANY more.

I don't see why people put so much stock by denominations. We all pretty much believe in the same God, and I think we can work out on our own how to carry that into our lives.

Using Izzy's example, I'm Catholic, but I haven't been to confession in years. I think me and God can work it out ourseves wihtout a priest getting in the way. Using Aron's example, I eat meat whenever I fancy, other than Good Friday, and again, I have my own reasons for that.

I dont think they were necessarily putting importance on the denominations. More a response based off what phlap asked. Personally I think denominations don't matter, I goto a pentecostal church, but most denominations just differ on a few doctrines...were all on the same team.

I don't see why people put so much stock by denominations. We all pretty much believe in the same God, and I think we can work out on our own how to carry that into our lives.

You're exactly right. We should all just live off of what it is we're basing our lives on, Jesus and the Bible. We shouldn't be bound by unbiblical doctrines such as confession and the "no meat on friday" thing.

Personally I think denominations don't matter, I goto a pentecostal church, but most denominations just differ on a few doctrines...were all on the same team.

We pretty much have the same outlook. The best thing about not belonging to any one denomination is that you can easily go into any church and fit in.

I reckon that the term "Father" is used because normal lay people use the priest as a substitute Jesus to say the mass, do the Eucharist etc...

I guess that's some sort of explanation. but, since it was Jesus saying not to do it, it still doesn't excuse it.

You're exactly right. We should all just live off of what it is we're basing our lives on, Jesus and the Bible. We shouldn't be bound by unbiblical doctrines such as confession and the "no meat on friday" thing.



We pretty much have the same outlook. The best thing about not belonging to any one denomination is that you can easily go into any church and fit in.

Well really you could go into nearly any church and just fit in...I mean thats what most churches want is for anyone to come and feel they fit in, feel comfortable, etc....unless its like a baptist church and you start speaking in tongues super loud haha. That would be shocking!

i think what it the scripture means is that do not worship any1 or see any1 as a god except God.. i fyou know what i mean

did you happen to know izzy that the catholic church was the first church,, that Jesus started?

^Actually, the Greek Orthodox church dates back further than the catholic church. And there are churches that date back even before that.
? I've noticed a HUGE difference in the majority of protestant denominations from Catholicism.

1.)Don't accept the pope as an authoritative figure
2.)Don't believe you have to go to a priest for confession of sin
3.)Don't pray to saints
4.)Don't believe in purgatory
5.)Don't believe in infant baptism

There's 5, and there are MANY more.
Have you ever actually gone to a catholic mass (with an open mind)? I doubt it.
1.) The papacy is your only argueable point, but I could easily throw up plenty of scripture supporting a pope.
2.) One of my best catholic friends, whom I attended mass with pretty much every week for a year, has never been to confession. And no one has ever given him crap for it. Confession is just a way to clear your conscience, protestants will also meet with their ministers to talk about their sins, they just don't use a confessional.
3.) Out of my year of going to mass, the congregation never once prayed to a saint. Catholics just hold saints with honor and respect.
4.) Purgatory is not preached. In fact the Vatican denounced it recently if I am recalling correctly. Besides, The idea of an eternal afterlife did not come from the Jews, but rather is a greek philosophy.
5.) There are plenty of Protestant churches that do infant baptism. Lutheran and Methodist do for sure.

You really need to think before you speak.

I would like to see scripture supporting a pope, if you don't mind.

actually the catholic church was the church Jesus Christ started,, not the orthodox

did you happen to know izzy that the catholic church was the first church,, that Jesus started?

No, Jesus founded the church. He didn't found the Catholic church, the Lutheran church, the Baptist, Methodist, or Penecostal church. He founded the Church. The Catholic church may have been what happened to the original church, because of heretics getting in and changing things around, and also Constantine, who hurt Christianity more than anyone in that time period, mainly because of his power. And myself I don't claim to follow any church denomination, but am a proud follower of Christ. I have nothing against people who call themselves by a denomination, but the point of the matter is that every denomination has those who serve Jesus, which is truly the church of Christ and that Jesus started, and also those who claim Christ but live contrary to their claims, which aren't really "Christians" at all (if you look at the actual meaning of the word, which is "Christ-like")

1.) The papacy is your only argueable point, but I could easily throw up plenty of scripture supporting a pope.
2.) One of my best catholic friends, whom I attended mass with pretty much every week for a year, has never been to confession. And no one has ever given him crap for it. Confession is just a way to clear your conscience, protestants will also meet with their ministers to talk about their sins, they just don't use a confessional.
3.) Out of my year of going to mass, the congregation never once prayed to a saint. Catholics just hold saints with honor and respect.
4.) Purgatory is not preached. In fact the Vatican denounced it recently if I am recalling correctly. Besides, The idea of an eternal afterlife did not come from the Jews, but rather is a greek philosophy.
5.) There are plenty of Protestant churches that do infant baptism. Lutheran and Methodist do for sure.

You really need to think before you speak.

Look at the church itself and not what the people do. Just because someone doesn't go to conefessional doesn't mean you're not supposed to. Same thing with the saints. If you want something of your pet at your house, you pray to a certain saint, though I don't remember which.

Look at the church itself and not what the people do. Just because someone doesn't go to conefessional doesn't mean you're not supposed to. Same thing with the saints. If you want something of your pet at your house, you pray to a certain saint, though I don't remember which.

There is a difference between praying to a saint, and praying through a saint. They believe that Saints are closer to God and ask that they deliver their prayers. I don't see how that is that hard to believe if you can believe a virgin can have a kid, or a man can come back from the dead 3 days later. Either way, I've spent plenty of time with catholics and have never seen/heard of them praying to a saint. That is just something that catholic-hating protestants like to blow way out of proportion.

Organizations are nothing without people. In this case, I consider what the majority of what people do far more important than what the doctrine says.

There is a difference between praying to a saint, and praying through a saint. They believe that Saints are closer to God and ask that they deliver their prayers. I don't see how that is that hard to believe if you can believe a virgin can have a kid, or a man can come back from the dead 3 days later. Either way, I've spent plenty of time with catholics and have never seen/heard of them praying to a saint. That is just something that catholic-hating protestants like to blow way out of proportion.

Maybe the info I got may have been skewed, but nevertheless my point stands. The things you listed are biblical principles. All Christians believe it.

Praying to a saint and paying through are much the same when it comes to the context that that is a difference between catholics and protestants. Protestants don't do that.

I hope you're not implying I am a hater of catholics?

Organizations are nothing without people. In this case, I consider what the majority of what people do far more important than what the doctrine says.

I think the 'people' of a church is a huge reason why Christianity is viewed the way it is.

^yeah i agree with the last part...some people tend to think christians should be perfect. but they mess up..and that is a way you get the response "i quit going to church because there was too many hypocrites"

yeah izzy but still I think it was Jesus who helped start the catholic church,,,,,theres a lot of things everyone could go on about.. Like for example it says in the bible about drinking Jesus's blood and eating his body. Now protestants think of that as like a symbol,, but It does say what it says drink my blood,, there are so many things that can mean things one way or another,,but yeah like so many people said,, We all love Jesus.

Maybe the info I got may have been skewed, but nevertheless my point stands. The things you listed are biblical principles. All Christians believe it.

Praying to a saint and paying through are much the same when it comes to the context that that is a difference between catholics and protestants. Protestants don't do that.

I hope you're not implying I am a hater of catholics?



I think the 'people' of a church is a huge reason why Christianity is viewed the way it is.
You're a pretty level headed guy, I wouldn't call you a catholic hater. But you must agree, it's not too uncommon for a lot of protestants (especially the new non-denominational wave) to diss catholics. Not that it means much to me, but im pretty sure there is scripture talking about not letting disputes rise up within the church, when i look at all the different i just think "wow, someone skipped that verse"

You're a pretty level headed guy, I wouldn't call you a catholic hater. But you must agree, it's not too uncommon for a lot of protestants (especially the new non-denominational wave) to diss catholics. Not that it means much to me, but im pretty sure there is scripture talking about not letting disputes rise up within the church, when i look at all the different i just think "wow, someone skipped that verse"

I know it's not uncommon. I find it a problem too, and I get uncomfortable when people 'diss' people. Aron brings up some interesting scripture and I think it's relevant. But at no point should we bag on anyone, Protestant, Catholic, Atheist, etc.

Aron:
Fifty Years in the Church of Rome by Charles Chiniquy is the autobiography of a priest that came out of Catholicism for some of the reasons you cited (ei, scripturally practices). Highly recommened reading. I agree with everything you have posted here.

trickeyboarder2:
1. The papacy began when Constantine baptized his Roman priests as "Christians" and he appointed himself as Pontifex Maximus. Read I Peter 5:1-4. Peter places himself on the same level as other pastors/elders. If he was the first pope then he didn't know it. Plus he did not practice celibacy.

2&3. Because the Catholic church in America is VERY different that European Catholicism. History reveals what the Roman church truly values, not its recent practices in a country where Catholicism is in the minority. I know in Mexico, Philippines, and Ireland (Catholic countries) that confession is mandatory and they pray to saints.

4. Did purgatory cease to exist? It never did even though the Vatican taught it for 1200+ years.

5. Protestant or Catholic, it isn't a biblical teaching or practice.

Aron:
Fifty Years in the Church of Rome by Charles Chiniquy is the autobiography of a priest that came out of Catholicism for some of the reasons you cited (ei, scripturally practices). Highly recommened reading. I agree with everything you have posted here.

trickeyboarder2:
1. The papacy began when Constantine baptized his Roman priests as "Christians" and he appointed himself as Pontifex Maximus. Read I Peter 5:1-4. Peter places himself on the same level as other pastors/elders. If he was the first pope then he didn't know it. Plus he did not practice celibacy.

2&3. Because the Catholic church in America is VERY different that European Catholicism. History reveals what the Roman church truly values, not its recent practices in a country where Catholicism is in the minority. I know in Mexico, Philippines, and Ireland (Catholic countries) that confession is mandatory and they pray to saints.

4. Did purgatory cease to exist? It never did even though the Vatican taught it for 1200+ years.

5. Protestant or Catholic, it isn't a biblical teaching or practice.

1. I agree that the original church did not have a papacy like the catholic church, but it also didn't have a system like the protestant church. The entire idea of being a minister for a living is not biblical. The first leaders of the church had other occupations, for instance, Paul made tents in order to make a living.
2/3. I understand that the European catholic church is very different from the catholic church in America, but all of that is cultural. I guess we need to specify which catholic church we're talking about.
4. Purgatory never existed, just like the christian idea of heaven and hell probably dont exist.
5. Like it matters, for some reason i really doubt water has some magical property that allows one into heaven.

? I've noticed a HUGE difference in the majority of protestant denominations from Catholicism.

1.)Don't accept the pope as an authoritative figure
2.)Don't believe you have to go to a priest for confession of sin
3.)Don't pray to saints
4.)Don't believe in purgatory
5.)Don't believe in infant baptism

There's 5, and there are MANY more.

Note the word "based" in my last post...


I know in Mexico, Philippines, and Ireland (Catholic countries) that confession is mandatory and they pray to saints.

Nope and nope.