Just some interesting ideas I came across, taken from the work of William Federer, who published a book with the same title^^.

They are really more of questions, but anyway:

1) Do you like rights that the government can't take away?
If you do, than there must be an authority higher than the government to establish those rights, and the founders of America said it was God.
The job of the government is to protect the rights of the people, but if the government is also the body that establishes the rights, than it seems rather... i dunno how to put it... scary and tyrannical.

2)Do you like being equal?
Traditionally, in Islam, an infidel is only worth half of a believer, and a woman is only worth half of a man. In Buddhism and Hinduism, there are casts, and men have a higher value than women. Even in communism, if you contribute, than you are valuable, but if you don't, than you are pretty much "voted off the island"
Equality is a Jewish-christian idea.
(this is a shaky argument, good point Higher-Class)

3)Would you prefer a country with a lot of laws, or fewer laws?
If you are smart, you are going to want to live in a country where the government doesn't run your life.
If you want fewer external laws, than there has to be internal, moral laws within each of us.
We all will be governed. Either within us, or without us.
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
-Benjamin Franklin
"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
Edmund Burke
If you think that people are naturally ethical without God, you don't understand human nature. Go leave your wallet in the park and see if it's there the next day.
For most people, or at least me personally, it takes the threat of consequences or rewards in the next life to get me to do the right thing.

so yea... that's all :) sheesh... it's scary starting a thread like this....

2)Do you like being equal?
Traditionally, in Islam, an infidel is only worth half of a believer, and a woman is only worth half of a man. In Buddhism and Hinduism, there are casts, and men have a higher value than women. Even in communism, if you contribute, than you are valuable, but if you don't, than you are pretty much "voted off the island"
Equality is a Jewish-christian idea.
This is a little shaky... you can't connect Christianity to the creation of the idea of equality just by naming all of the institutions that value inequality; it's a logical flaw. Plus I'm pretty sure that equality was a political idea manifested by the Renaissance. Also, ancient Judaism and Christianity both put men in higher status over women... just read the Old Testament.

^yea, that was admittedly shaky!

Just some interesting ideas I came across, taken from the work of William Federer, who published a book with the same title^^.

They are really more of questions, but anyway:

1) Do you like rights that the government can't take away?
If you do, than there must be an authority higher than the government to establish those rights, and the founders of America said it was God.
The job of the government is to protect the rights of the people, but if the government is also the body that establishes the rights, than it seems rather... i dunno how to put it... scary and tyrannical.

America is government by the people, for the people. We the people are the authority higher than the government. The system of checks and balances, the three branches of government and the two party system, were established to keep each other in check.


2)Do you like being equal?
Traditionally, in Islam, an infidel is only worth half of a believer, and a woman is only worth half of a man. In Buddhism and Hinduism, there are casts, and men have a higher value than women. Even in communism, if you contribute, than you are valuable, but if you don't, than you are pretty much "voted off the island"
Equality is a Jewish-christian idea.

Jewish people claim to be the chosen people and Christians claim it's their way or the hellway. Equality is a product of the Enlightenment, a decidedly secular movement.


3)Would you prefer a country with a lot of laws, or fewer laws?
If you are smart, you are going to want to live in a country where the government doesn't run your life.
If you want fewer external laws, than there has to be internal, moral laws within each of us.
We all will be governed. Either within us, or without us.
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
-Benjamin Franklin
"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
Edmund Burke
If you think that people are naturally ethical without God, you don't understand human nature. Go leave your wallet in the park and see if it's there the next day.
For most people, or at least me personally, it takes the threat of consequences or rewards in the next life to get me to do the right thing.

so yea... that's all :) sheesh... it's scary starting a thread like this....

Christians have led nations in the past, with tyrannical results. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it matters not whether those with the power are religious or secular. The system of government in America has had some success because it has had democracy to promote changes in the direction its leadership takes. Still, the powers-that-be have been slowly whittling away at the power the people have. Our representatives have steadily become tools of big business, and represent their interests instead of the interests of the majority. The current President has superseded the legal bounds of the Oval Office and our representatives have helped him do it. The Democrats and Republicans have become too much alike, helping each other along in their thirst for power, caring only about re-election and not about progress. The power is being taken from the people, and the people haven't so much as put up a fight. Too busy watching American Idol and being mollified by Fox News...

If you think that people are naturally ethical without God, you don't understand human nature. Go leave your wallet in the park and see if it's there the next day.
For most people, or at least me personally, it takes the threat of consequences or rewards in the next life to get me to do the right thing.


Being ethical is something you get taught while growing up. Ethics is man made, it's the weak/dumb ganging up on the strong/smart. Don't steal, don't kill, love everyone bla bla bla. Weak/dumb people ganging up on the strong/smart.
There are no ethics in nature it's kill or be killed. Grown male lions kill baby lions that belongs to another male and his female partner to get to mate with the female himself. Is it ethically wrong? Nope! It's nature!

I don't believe in God and I would return the wallet if it had an ID in it. If not tough luck don't leave your wallet around. Maybe if it was a decent skate spot I would skate there the next couple of days in hope for the guy/girl who lost his/hers wallet to return and look for it. Why would I do it? Because I know if it were me I would like someone to do the same.

And you just admitted only reason you believe is because you fear the consequences/like the thought of rewards(aka greed). Really now there is absolutely nothing to fear let alone look forward to. Well I actually look forward to death. Think about it. No worries, no one is nagging. Think about heaven. All your dead relatives and friends wanting to have a chat about nonsense. Seriously....
Merging doublepost
Too busy watching American Idol and being mollified by Fox News...

Seriously I've been saying that for so many years now!

Someone can take over the world doesn't matter cause the rest is busy watching some Idol program.

And you just admitted only reason you believe is because you fear the consequences/like the thought of rewards(aka greed).

i didn't say anything about belief. i was talking about integrity. lawl.

but yea, i disagree with most of what you said, though you said it quite well. :) (i am in a commenty mood, not debatey mood)

peace owt.

i didn't say anything about belief. i was talking about integrity. lawl.

but yea, i disagree with most of what you said, though you said it quite well. :) (i am in a commenty mood, not debatey mood)

peace owt.

Really now. "in the next life". Sounds like belief to me. But it might just be my poor english as it is my second language. Not that my first language is any better hahaha

If morals came from God, at least, the Christian one...then why weren't women allowed to vote? Or why were African-American's lynched? Are you going to tell me because they weren't Christian?

And certainly, slavery wasn't a sin now was it?


Side note: Love your quote by Einstein, he was an Atheist just to let you know, he used God in the metaphorical sense.

If morals came from God, at least, the Christian one...then why weren't women allowed to vote? Or why were African-American's lynched? Are you going to tell me because they weren't Christian?

And certainly, slavery wasn't a sin now was it?


Side note: Love your quote by Einstein, he was an Atheist just to let you know, he used God in the metaphorical sense.

Yeah, I think I've told her that before..
Maybe not?

Reminds me of a bible verse I read a few weeks ago:

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."


So.. according to the bible.. Albert Einstein has done no good.


OH! And Thomas Edison.

You have a light bulb megan?

Apparently that is an abominable work.





lawlz. jk

Yeah, I think I've told her that before..
Maybe not?

Reminds me of a bible verse I read a few weeks ago:

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."


So.. according to the bible.. Albert Einstein has done no good.


OH! And Thomas Edison.

You have a light bulb megan?

Apparently that is an abominable work.

No now you are taking the verse out of context. You forgot to add "lol j/k it's a joke" at the end. Keep reading next time. Also it's not meant to be taken literally. It's metaphorical for doubting yourself you will do no good for yourself. You really need to read more of the Bible.

No now you are taking the verse out of context. You forgot to add "lol j/k it's a joke" at the end. Keep reading next time. Also it's not meant to be taken literally. It's metaphorical for doubting yourself you will do no good for yourself. You really need to read more of the Bible.

Haha.

I thought my sarcasm was obvious?

lol.

its there now, but its uber invisible.

beyond white.

:)

Really now. "in the next life". Sounds like belief to me. But it might just be my poor english as it is my second language. Not that my first language is any better hahaha

you are right. i did say a little something about belief, but it really wasn't the focus of that statement.

If morals came from God, at least, the Christian one...then why weren't women allowed to vote? Or why were African-American's lynched? Are you going to tell me because they weren't Christian?

And certainly, slavery wasn't a sin now was it?


Side note: Love your quote by Einstein, he was an Atheist just to let you know, he used God in the metaphorical sense.

you know, you are right. those things were very wrong. i think tho, that if those who were responsable for slavery and a lack of equal rights for women and etc had had a better sense of justice or more biblicaly grounded, that they would have acted differently.

and about Einstein, i know very well that he was an athiest, and that his marvel was probably directed more to the order/laws in the universe than in God. from what i have read about him, i would say though that it is possible that his belief in God went a tiny bit farther than metaphor (but not much farther, lol). but yea, i am reading a biography about him, and it's just one of the many quotes i like from him. i guess it is a bit cynical of me to quote something positive that an athiest said about God. haha.

Haha.

I thought my sarcasm was obvious?

lol.

its there now, but its uber invisible.

beyond white.

:)

Yeah I know you are making fun of how ethical and moral the Bible is, but my post is a proper response you would get from a Christian!
Merging doublepost

you know, you are right. those things were very wrong. i think tho, that if those who were responsable for slavery and a lack of equal rights for women and etc had had a better sense of justice or more biblicaly grounded, that they would have acted differently.


Say what?!? They couldn't be more biblically grounded. Slavery and man superior to women is what the Bible is about!

lawlz, alex, love you kid.




Say what?!? They couldn't be more biblically grounded. Slavery and man superior to women is what the Bible is about!

study up. there is plently of stuff in the Bible about treating slaves well and paying them what they deserve. the slavery that wasn't bashed in the Bible was of a different sort. a slave was often simply one who was doing the work of another as a way to earn income.

and, the Bible says a few things about it not being right for women to take certain leadership roles within the church, but it never says man is superior.. at least i don't think.../

and, the Bible says a few things about it not being right for women to take certain leadership roles within the church, but it never says man is superior.. at least i don't think.../

In genesis wasn't it so that the woman was created out of man's rib because the woman answers/serves man and man answers/serves God. So man and woan isn't equal.

I'm pretty sure someone on this forum mentioned something like this.

In genesis wasn't it so that the woman was created out of man's rib because the woman answers/serves man and man answers/serves God. So man and woan isn't equal.

Well, I wouldn't say that a woman's job in life is to serve men so they can serve God, but I would say instead that part of a woman's job is to serve God alongside men.
I dunno if that makes and sense.

Also, God saw the aloneness of one guy all by himself, and saw that it wasn't good.....viola.

If morals came from God, at least, the Christian one...then why weren't women allowed to vote? Or why were African-American's lynched? Are you going to tell me because they weren't Christian?

And certainly, slavery wasn't a sin now was it?


Side note: Love your quote by Einstein, he was an Atheist just to let you know, he used God in the metaphorical sense.

I agree with everything but your side note. Einstein believed in Spinoza's idea on God. In short, he had belief in a god, but that god was not personal, merely an energy of sorts. But in a way, an spinoza-ist (yes, i think i made that word up) is essentially an athiest because belief in God doesn't matter.

Einstein described belief in God as "childish superstition."


Albert Einstein described belief in God as "childish superstition" and said Jews were not the chosen people, in a letter to be sold in London this week, an auctioneer said Tuesday.

The father of relativity, whose previously known views on religion have been more ambivalent and fuelled much discussion, made the comments in response to a philosopher in 1954.

As a Jew himself, Einstein said he had a great affinity with Jewish people but said they "have no different quality for me than all other people".

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.

"No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this," he wrote in the letter written on January 3, 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind, cited by The Guardian newspaper.

The German-language letter is being sold Thursday by Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, said the auction house's managing director Rupert Powell.



In it, the renowned scientist, who declined an invitation to become Israel's second president, rejected the idea that the Jews are God's chosen people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions," he said.

"And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people."

And he added: "As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

Previously the great scientist's comments on religion -- such as "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" -- have been the subject of much debate, used notably to back up arguments in favour of faith.

Powell said the letter being sold this week gave a clear reflection of Einstein's real thoughts on the subject. "He's fairly unequivocal as to what he's saying. There's no beating about the bush," he told AFP.



Copyright AFP 2008, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium

If you think that people are naturally ethical without God, you don't understand human nature. Go leave your wallet in the park and see if it's there the next day.
For most people, or at least me personally, it takes the threat of consequences or rewards in the next life to get me to do the right thing.

Why base your ethical code on fairytales? This is my one existance on this planet, I choose to live mine without the selfish fantasy that theres a figure in the sky that created me, always loves me, judges me justly, and answers my prayers(when he feels like it). This book that christians base their life on is nothing. It is a watered down, mistranslated, half version of what it was originally meant to be. What is taught today as christianity is just an interpretation of what this story book might actually be talking about.

Faith is nothing but an obstacle to overcome in a search for true being. Clear your mind of faith, lust, and ego, and you are left with yourself, not societies version of you.

As for "human nature", it simply does not exist. Is it a pacifists nature to kill? Is it a blind person's nature to see? Sure for some people certain things seem like human nature to them, but generally everything we do is to fufill our deep selfish wants(including belief in god) so give up the selfishness and there's no limitations.

1) Do you like rights that the government can't take away?
If you do, than there must be an authority higher than the government to establish those rights, and the founders of America said it was God.
The job of the government is to protect the rights of the people, but if the government is also the body that establishes the rights, than it seems rather... i dunno how to put it... scary and tyrannical.

Being regulated by a figment of your imagination is also scary. And let me remind you that the decisions made from religous leaders today are not, in fact, made directly by your God. Sure, maybe God does influence them if you want to believe in that stuff. But, the decisions made by religous leaders are made by religous leader not God... and what makes being ruled by them better than being ruled by the government?


2)Do you like being equal?
Traditionally, in Islam, an infidel is only worth half of a believer, and a woman is only worth half of a man. In Buddhism and Hinduism, there are casts, and men have a higher value than women. Even in communism, if you contribute, than you are valuable, but if you don't, than you are pretty much "voted off the island"
Equality is a Jewish-christian idea.
(this is a shaky argument, good point Higher-Class)
Being equal is great! Especially when women are allowed to be priests and can try to become pope and the bible says they're equal. (SARCASM)


3)Would you prefer a country with a lot of laws, or fewer laws?
If you are smart, you are going to want to live in a country where the government doesn't run your life.
If you want fewer external laws, than there has to be internal, moral laws within each of us.
We all will be governed. Either within us, or without us.
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
-Benjamin Franklin
"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
Edmund Burke
If you think that people are naturally ethical without God, you don't understand human nature. Go leave your wallet in the park and see if it's there the next day.
For most people, or at least me personally, it takes the threat of consequences or rewards in the next life to get me to do the right thing.

We still have a conscience even without the existance of God. Look at me... I am an athiest and proud, and you know what? I haven't gunned down a person for pissing me off in my WHOLE 14 years of life. Suprising isnt it? You see without your God I actually CAN be a good person. I know that may be suprising but if your God is gonna send me to your hell just because I didn't believe in him or want to be ruled by something I am not sure of then he can get on his knees, unzip my fly, and suck my ****. Pardon my French.