I've been thinking a bit more about ethics in general and i came to the conclusion that there should be some standards set to the way we kill/eat animals.
The two standards I set were....
1. The animals must have a decent existence and able to live in the way it is natural for the species to live.
2. The animals must be killed in a way that causes no stress whatsoever and is completely painless

I've seen the way my dog sometimes gets depressed and sometimes get anxious or even hyperactive and sometimes acts goofy and other times old and wise and graceful. I think all animals have the ability to feel many emotions even though they cant express them with their faces.
I'm thinking more and more that they are on this earth to experience life and behave in a way that is natural for them.

So when a animal suffers what is the result? well nothing really. Noone is affected.
But if a child dies in the woods and nobody knows of him or of his suffering does it matter that he suffered? Well it would have mattered to the child but if noone else knew then what does it matter.
Now would you want to know if a child is suffering in the woods? well of course you would because you cant do anything unless you know about it.

And do you want to know if the animals you are eating are suffering?

"The animals must have a decent existence and able to live in the way it is natural for the species to live" Do you really think that would make a difference.? Wouldn't it be as bad if not worse for the animals?

"The animals must have a decent existence and able to live in the way it is natural for the species to live" Do you really think that would make a difference.? Wouldn't it be as bad if not worse for the animals?

true, animals do suffer at the hands of other animals. but the difference is ethics. Animals are not capable of humanely killing other animals to feed themselves.
Humans are capable of giving animals a natural existence and then humanely killing them.
Do we really want to base our standards on the way other animals behave?

No i mean is it fair to give them a taste of the free life and then come along and say thats enough now your coming with us to die.. And yes i do care about animals i'm a member of PETA

animals eat animals, there's nothing wrong with it, I have two cousins who are vegans and whenever they come to visit we have to but special everything, I don't understand milk and eggs, it doesn't hurt the animal at all! Also, you have to have special everything that's not food, like shampoo even, soap, paper, it's ridiculous! There's an old joke that goes as such: "How do you know if someone's a vegan? -They'll tell you" and I find that ridiculously true, vegans just like to gloat about how much they love animals and try to give people a hard time, it's stupid, it's just nature, we have pointed teeth which means we are supposed to eat meat, even if you don't believe in God or that he put animals on earth for us to eat, then believe in evolution, Darwin's Theory, survival of the fittest, we grew sharp teeth to survive, to strive.

No i mean is it fair to give them a taste of the free life and then come along and say thats enough now your coming with us to die..

yeah, i think that's ok. They have a normal existence then suddenly one day their lights go out.
i think thats better than the animals suffering then they're taken to the slaughter house and the animals all say, oh thank god, they're killing us
Merging doublepost
we have pointed teeth which means we are supposed to eat meat, e.

it's not about whether eating meat is right or wrong. I'm talking about the way animals are treated. It's possible to respect and treat animals well and eat them at the same time.
The reason allot of vegans eat meat is that they have realized that the animals they were eating were not treated in a way that is respectful or humane and they dont want to support the industry.

it's not about whether eating meat is right or wrong. I'm talking about the way animals are treated. It's possible to respect and treat animals well and eat them at the same time.
The reason allot of vegans eat meat is that they have realized that the animals they were eating were not treated in a way that is respectful or humane and they dont want to support the industry.

gotcha, my bad then, I wasn't aware it was the treatment of the animals.

I don't know what they do to those chickens, but they taste great in this TV dinner I'm eating right now, lol, sorry

vegans just like to gloat about how much they love animals and try to give people a hard time,
thats because the only time you meet a vegan is when you know they are a vegan and this only happens if they tell you.
Once i noticed that a friend never seemed to order meat dishes, only pasta and stuff. It wasnt until i asked him that he told me. He said he usually he didnt tell because people seem to hate vegans.

It's a bit like people who are allergic to penuts. They're always saying "i cant eat that"
Merging doublepost
gotcha, my bad then, I wasn't aware it was the treatment of the animals.

I don't know what they do to those chickens, but they taste great in this TV dinner I'm eating right now, lol, sorry
thats cool. It's the big companies who are the problem. Not guys like you and me who are just eating because we're hungry.
i mean the very jumper i'm wearing was probably linked with some injustice at some stage

I've seen the videos of them killing the animals and it's cruel but they still taste great.

You decided to become a vegan and now suddenly you make a thread on how you think we should treat animals? How vegan of you!!!!

I couldn't give less than a sh*t about how the animals are treated. As long as they end up as tasty food on my plate whenever I need it.

I could never hurt an animal myself unless of course it's an amphibious attack tiger trying to kill me. But still I don't care, I want meat and I want it now!

About ethics. There are no ethics. You know who thought we should include animals in our sh*tty ethics? A-holes who figured they would eat only grass and then impose their f*cking needs on everyone else.

Pro tip: Don't be a vegan.

You decided to become a vegan and now suddenly you make a thread on how you think we should treat animals? How vegan of you!!!!


what's wrong with what i said about treating animals. It was simply that their life should be decent and their death to be painless. I dont see this as a big deal. Is it asking too much?
Like i said, there's nothing wrong with eating meat, to me, it's all about the treatment of animals

I couldn't give less than a sh*t about how the animals are treated. As long as they end up as tasty food on my plate whenever I need it.

How big and tough of you.

That is true, they could be treated better. Some places are awful.

That is true, they could be treated better. Some places are awful.

hey, street skater. you and me have been on this forums way too much lately, lol. It's too wet to skate though ey?

what's wrong with what i said about treating animals. It was simply that their life should be decent and their death to be painless. I dont see this as a big deal. Is it asking too much?
Like i said, there's nothing wrong with eating meat, to me, it's all about the treatment of animals


How big and tough of you.

Yes we are going to spend money and resources to make sure animals get treated nice when we are out there murdering our own species. We can't even treat each other in a good way so why start with animals?

You really think they who work at the slaughter house is enjoying their job? I think this extra hassle will be welcomed with a smile right? No.

We've worked for countless years to be the top of the food chain. I plan on enjoying it.

We've worked for countless years to be the top of the food chain. I plan on enjoying it.

F*ck yeah!

hey, street skater. you and me have been on this forums way too much lately, lol. It's too wet to skate though ey?

Haha yeah bro, I've been staying up late as so i wake up at like 10 then fall asleep at 12 till 5 haha it's been freezing here, Definatly going for a skate tomorrow though :icon_2gun lock and load time, baby!

funny how the topic of meat bring out the testosterone. (brains off, egos on)
you're completely unreasonable mccrank. You attitude is..
I LIKE MEAT SO TO HELL WITH YOU AND TREATING ANIMALS WELL.

I'm not even a vegan but i'm considering becoming one, if just for the sake of annoying people who say "what? a vegan, nah that stupid, ya got eat meat"

50 years ago people with mental disability's were treated like animals because everyone thought taht they didnt think like us, they dont feel pain like us. They dont mind sitting in their own filth for days. Our ethics have changed since.
I hope in another 50 years it will be common sense to treat the animals we eat well, and people wont laugh and dismiss people who are calling for a descent treatment of animals



Here's some pro skaters who are vegans
Ed Templeton
Laban Pheidias
Jen O’Brien

Geoff Rowley



Haha yeah bro, I've been staying up late as so i wake up at like 10 then fall asleep at 12 till 5 haha it's been freezing here, Definatly going for a skate tomorrow though :icon_2gun lock and load time, baby!
yeah so have i. my sleeps been whack. I had a sesh in the garage but it real small so not much good. holidays next week too!! gonna rip it up. Maybe go to buller too.

Come back when humans can treat other humans properly. Until then there's no reason to treat animals better than our own kind.

I also honestly don't care how the animals are treated. As long as I can have steak, ham, turky, chicken, fish, and deer, I will be happy. (I think I got all of them there) The animals are going to die anyway just like everything else. And even if they are treated bad how does that effect anyone. I can't see how it does. And there are humans that are beaten and brutaly murdered yet no one is talking about them. Yes other people don't eat them (most of the time) but still the are being treated bad which is worse them someone treating an animal bad. STEAK FTW!!!

I do actually care about the animals..

but im no vegan or vegetarian.
im an organic eater.
which basically means that the animals are not stuck in lil cells with 20 other animals.
its "happy" food .
lmfao

If animals didn't want to be eaten why are they made out of meat?

I dont care about discussing the politics of being a vegan, but will give you some tips for actually doing it.

Make sure you drink/ use soy milk
Learn to cook, it will save you lots of money and hasle
Calcium fortified orange juice is great
Dont depend on fake meat
Beans and nuts, lots of them
Cheap fake butter usually is vegan(watch out for Whey)
Peanut Chews and extra dark choclate are vegan
Vegan With A Vengance, Dont Feed The Bears, The Accidental Vegan, and Hot Damn and Hell Yeah are all very good vegan cookbooks.
There is a lot of good info at The PPK's website.

I've been a strict vegetarian for years ( not coz of some higher belief or anything, but just coz I loathe the smell of meat, it's also healtier & makes me feel better), & you can do this very easily.

Becoming a vegan however is something completely different. Vegetarian= you don't eat animals, vegan = you don't eat ANY anmial products at all, this also means, butter, milk, honey, cheese, etc. Basically any product that has animal dna in it.

This can also be done, but you'll be needing to take lots of supplements, coz you'll be lacking all sorts of crucial stuff in your food, you really need.

Also, becoming a vegan, means you'll have far less fuel (energy) than a "normal" other person & you'll get tired very fast or even faint if you exhaust yourself too much physically (= bye bye skating for example).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying vegans are unhealthy people, au contraire they're very healthy, its just very hard to keep that kinda dicipline in a diet.

example: A (vegetarian) friend of mine decided to become a vegan a few years ago & passed out in the gym.

hope this helps & explains the (big) difference

when there's war, drugs, violence, and murder going on in the world. we have to stop and make sure the animals are being treated with the upmost comfort before they die. it makes sense. not.

Also, becoming a vegan, means you'll have far less fuel (energy) than a "normal" other person & you'll get tired very fast or even faint if you exhaust yourself too much physically (= bye bye skating for example).


Thats not true at all. You can get just as many calories from a vegan diet as a meat eating one. I have been vegan on and off for a couple of years. And have gone on 5 hour bike rides, all day long races, long skate sessions, etc. all while being a vegan. Tony Gonzalaz, Ricky Williams(both pro football player), Carl Lewis(world class sprinter), and Ed Templeton are all vegan.

And with a well balanced diet it is not nessisary to take any artifically nutrient packed pills that are increadably unhealthy. You just have to know what you are doing.

If animals didn't want to be eaten why are they made out of meat?

i lol'd

Fanta orange and lemon both have fish gelatine in, a little known fact for you vegitarians there:). It's to do with the finings they put in to make it less cloudy and disgusting.
Also some beers and wines etc have gelatine in, http://www.veggiewines.co.uk/ that'll tell you what's safe for you guys to drink.
All of my sisters are vegitarien and i don't have anything against vegitarians although i'm not myself one.

I often think when vegitarians dont eat things containing gelatine- how much actual cow is in that?!:p not much! ha it is pretty disgusting though, cow bones:S not the nicest thought. It's like black pudding, nice aslong as you don't think about what it is haha.

I'm not vegitarian for several reasons: i don't think i'd get the right neutritional requirements, i really, really like meat, i don't have a problem that animals are killed for our consumption. I do however mind if they are treated badly and its hard to know how they've been treated but still, i'm not going to become vegitarian.

chick fil a treats their chickens right is what i heard from my vegan and vegitarian friends

Thats not true at all. You can get just as many calories from a vegan diet as a meat eating one. I have been vegan on and off for a couple of years. And have gone on 5 hour bike rides, all day long races, long skate sessions, etc. all while being a vegan. Tony Gonzalaz, Ricky Williams(both pro football player), Carl Lewis(world class sprinter), and Ed Templeton are all vegan.

And with a well balanced diet it is not nessisary to take any artifically nutrient packed pills that are increadably unhealthy. You just have to know what you are doing.

I didn't say it was impossible, what I mean is (& I really didn't want to say this in my first post :tongue:) that most young people don't have the character to live that strict a diet (or they can't, coz mom thinks they'll die in a year).

I mean, hell I'm practically a vegan myself, the only animal products I eat every now & then, are cheese, yoghurt,honey & maybe 2 eggs a month. And I was into scaffholding for over 5 years (which is one of the heaviest physical jobs out there).

@01rmck: technically, stuff like beer is also an animal product: the bioculture (bacteria) eat the sugar in the brew, & they ****... you guessed it: alcohol

If animals didn't want to be eaten why are they made out of meat?

dunno why, but it has a cannibalistic sound to it, humans are after all, also made of meat

So it can be done, but you have to think it over (I don't, I'm a cook by education, so I know whats good for me & its easier for me to make a well balanced dish than most other folks:tongue:)

If animals didn't want to be eaten why are they made out of meat?

haha. Im sure nobody wantes to be eaten.

lololololol

Even though I think animals should be treated like living creatures that do feel pain I understand what McCrank is saying, before we can start trying to save animals from pain and poor treatment, we have to worry about our own race. There are people starving in third world countries that I would help out before I would try to fix how animals are treated.

On a side-note I have heard about a technique called "flash slaughtering" where they start processing the animal while it's still alive. And I don't think that's necessary. I say it doesn't cost that much more money to invest in a device that will slaughter animals the quick and painless way, then I could go back to eating my hot dogs and stuff whithout guilt lol

Whats the point?? One Vegan isnt gonna save an animal theres more meat eaters than vegans out there... way more

Come back when humans can treat other humans properly. Until then there's no reason to treat animals better than our own kind.

so your the kind who thinks we shouldnt spend money on anything as long as people are starving.
So when i buy a pack of chewy gums you'd say "OMG i cant believe you would spend money on something so useless when people are starving"
and if the government decides to build a series of skate parks you'd be against it because the money could be used for starving children?
There are millions other important issues in the world that need to be addressed.
It seems that you dont think animals deserve anything because they arent as smart as us and cant complain. Why do you care about humans anyway?


The world not gonna be a worse place if we put a bit more money into animal welfare.
We could put some restrictions on the meat factories which would result in the price of meat going up a bit. And your country could do with a diet. As could mine.
I cant believe how strongly against human decency you are. especially when you feel you eating habits are threatened.

If you decide to become vegan, good for you. I choose to eat animals because they are yummy.

but this should be in off-topic

I also honestly don't care how the animals are treated.

do you have a dog?

Whats the point?? One Vegan isnt gonna save an animal theres more meat eaters than vegans out there... way more

a bit the same as saying one pacifist isn't gonna save the world, & there's a lot more bad folks then good ones, so lets have another war, right??

doesn't really make any sense...or does it...

so your the kind who thinks we shouldnt spend money on anything as long as people are starving.
So when i buy a pack of chewy gums you'd say "OMG i cant believe you would spend money on something so useless when people are starving"
and if the government decides to build a series of skate parks you'd be against it because the money could be used for starving children?
There are millions other important issues in the world that need to be addressed.
It seems that you dont think animals deserve anything because they arent as smart as us and cant complain. Why do you care about humans anyway?


The world not gonna be a worse place if we put a bit more money into animal welfare.
We could put some restrictions on the meat factories which would result in the price of meat going up a bit. And your country could do with a diet. As could mine.
I cant believe how strongly against human decency you are. especially when you feel you eating habits are threatened.

I don't care about animals or humans or the environment or anything.

But if I would have to make a list of priorities human welfare would be on top of the list(this includes the skateparks as it is welfare). So it would be stupid to start spending money on animals when there are sh*tload of people needing help.

I don't donate to charity and I never will. Not my problem that people are suffering. However when someone comes "Hey guys we need to take care of animals better before we eat them" all I can do is /facepalm.

Animals doesn't deserve sh*t. Why do they deserve it? Really do you see any other animal on this planet wishing good for all other animals? No you don't.

Oh next time you kill a fly, make sure it's not suffering.

do you have a dog?

Yes, I have two dogs and they have nothing to do with this. If you would have read my post you would see that I listed the animals I was for the most part talking about. So before you reply to this possibly go back and read that and maybe even this one again.

Tell you the truth. I kind of like it when people become vegans or what ever it's called. That means there is more meat for me!!!

I don't care about animals or humans or the environment or anything.

But if I would have to make a list of priorities human welfare would be on top of the list(this includes the skateparks as it is welfare). So it would be stupid to start spending money on animals when there are sh*tload of people needing help.

I don't donate to charity and I never will. Not my problem that people are suffering. However when someone comes "Hey guys we need to take care of animals better before we eat them" all I can do is /facepalm.

Animals doesn't deserve sh*t. Why do they deserve it? Really do you see any other animal on this planet wishing good for all other animals? No you don't.

Oh next time you kill a fly, make sure it's not suffering.

well, I normally don't say stuff like this, but I hope you get cancer,aids, or get polluted in an industrial accident one day & that there's no one to support you mentally & financially. Since you don't care about anyone, why should they care about you, right? Maybe you'll understand one day that the world IS worth saving (although some individuals DESERVE to die), coz its the only one we have.

You sound just like my dad & take it from me, he'll die all alone with no one who cares about him. Then again, you might change your pov once you get kids, you're still very young after all so who am I to judge you.

I will probably get cancer and if not I will probably die of a heart attack at the age of 45.

I'm sorry if I happen to view the world from a different perspective(unbiased). I didn't get brain washed since birth.

Hey in person I'm super helpful to those who ask me for help(it's at the point where if someone asks me for help for something I'm good at they open a f*cking library). It's not like I don't care about my family and friends. Or if a guy falls on his ass and breaks his leg and screams for help. Of course I'll help him.

So I'm a bit extreme on a forum. It's fun to see the reactions.

when there's war, drugs, violence, and murder going on in the world. we have to stop and make sure the animals are being treated with the upmost comfort before they die. it makes sense. not.

How can you have peace when you are slaughtering animals, seeing as we are animals too.

'Until he extends his circle of compassion to all living things,
man will not himself find peace.' Dr. Albert Schweitzer



Even though I think animals should be treated like living creatures that do feel pain I understand what McCrank is saying, before we can start trying to save animals from pain and poor treatment, we have to worry about our own race. There are people starving in third world countries that I would help out before I would try to fix how animals are treated.

To produce 0,5kg of meat you need 100 times more water than for 0,5kg of corn. That is just as much water that a whole family uses in a month. 1 meal of meat is the eqeuvalent(sp) of the water of 548 people.

You need far less water for a vegetarian to eat for a whole year than an meat eater for a whole month.

Source: www.kutwereld.nl and www.vlees.us (both dutch sites so you will need an translator)

questioN!

vegaterians dont eat meat

while vegans do what?

Vegans dont eat animal products. So they are vegiterians that also use no dairy products, eggs, honey, and other random animal products. .snowfalls here is a list of animal derived products that its a good idea to have on hand http://www.vnv.org.au/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=97

I will probably get cancer and if not I will probably die of a heart attack at the age of 45.

I'm sorry if I happen to view the world from a different perspective(unbiased). I didn't get brain washed since birth.

So I'm a bit extreme on a forum. It's fun to see the reactions.

you're not the only one m8, my mom died when I was 5 or so, my dad didn't want me anymore; I practically raised myself (not the best idea), lived in the gutter, did a lot of drugs, bad friends, I have an OCD, etc...

So I too saw the world from a different perspective, but then my kid came into this world & that really changed my way of looking at life. I'm even having a job that lets me help people now. And yes, I don't eat meat {rf), but at least all that stuff made me into a better person (not really, I just made peace with myself)

can't that be alittle extreme being a vegan?

i mean, in most religons that say killing is bad(like hinduism), the people are vegatrain

but why no animal products like milk?

im just curious why thats all:icon_wink

An interesting viewpoint to add to this discussion is Ted Nugent's, who only eats meat from animals he kills on his own using his bow and arrow.

I eat meat and I always have, so it would be quite a transition for me to go vegetarian. I have given it some consideration, and I don't think I could give up fish because I like sushi too much.

you're not the only one m8, my mom died when I was 5 or so, my dad didn't want me anymore; I practically raised myself (not the best idea), lived in the gutter, did a lot of drugs, bad friends, I have an OCD, etc...

So I too saw the world from a different perspective, but then my kid came into this world & that really changed my way of looking at life. I'm even having a job that lets me help people now. And yes, I don't eat meat {rf), but at least all that stuff made me into a better person (not really, I just made peace with myself)

Can't really compare to your upbringing. But it's not about having a bad upbringing. It's about seeing things unbiased w/o the man made BS you get fed through school and the mass media.

I don't mind people deciding to eat nothing but greens and nuts if it makes them feel good. But when someone comes in here saying like "we need to treat animals better before we kill and eat them. I'm going to be a vegan because we don't treat them nice".
This is when my alarm goes off.
When was the last time you saw a lion treating their prey nice before eating them? Didn't happen. Why should we? You know what I think. I think it's just another scheme some a-hole cooked up to make money doing nothing.

I got an idea! I'm gonna play on peoples feelings so I can get paid making other peoples lives more troublesome!

I'm going to impose my "animals are people too" on slaughter houses so they have to treat animals good and nice before murdering them and turning them into food. What's gonna pay the whole thing is donations and tax dollars! F*ck yeah! GREAT PLAN!

I'm sorry i offended you McCrank, by saying that we should treat animals better.

It's just that when people say things like "I don't care about animals or humans or the environment or anything" I tend to have a bias in thinking that they're a complete moron.

Have a nice life mate.

I've been thinking a bit more about ethics in general and i came to the conclusion that there should be some standards set to the way we kill/eat animals.
The two standards I set were....
1. The animals must have a decent existence and able to live in the way it is natural for the species to live.
2. The animals must be killed in a way that causes no stress whatsoever and is completely painless

I've seen the way my dog sometimes gets depressed and sometimes get anxious or even hyperactive and sometimes acts goofy and other times old and wise and graceful. I think all animals have the ability to feel many emotions even though they cant express them with their faces.
I'm thinking more and more that they are on this earth to experience life and behave in a way that is natural for them.

So when a animal suffers what is the result? well nothing really. Noone is affected.
But if a child dies in the woods and nobody knows of him or of his suffering does it matter that he suffered? Well it would have mattered to the child but if noone else knew then what does it matter.
Now would you want to know if a child is suffering in the woods? well of course you would because you cant do anything unless you know about it.

And do you want to know if the animals you are eating are suffering?

Personally, I'd never go veggie/vegan, everything dies anyway, and it's not like the cow's going to mind if I eat it, it'll be long gone by that time...

& if some cannibals fancy eating me, I wouldn't exactly be in a position to argue, I'd be dead & therefore, wouldn't really care...

The amount of times I've seen Jamie Oliver on TV protesting animal cruelty is hilarious, and it doesn't affect me (or most other people) at all...

Sure I'd be pissed off if someone came along and killed my dog, but I don't think my dog'd mind afterward, He'd be dead...

Yeah you could go ahead and call me out for being a horrible person, but jees, we were meant to eat meat after all, besides, who says plants don't have a living consiousness too, eating an apple still kills the apple...

Personally, I'm not a vegetarian/vegan and most likely won't become one but in response to McCrank's argument of why should treat animals better if we can't even treat other human beings better, couldn't you argue that how can we think that people have the decency to treat their own kind better when they can't do the same to something as simple as a chicken or cow?

-eat or be eaten.

-its the food chain man. completely natural and necessary.

-if God didn't want us to be eating things like cows, he wouldn't have made them so damn tasty. hahahaha

You have nice ideals Snowfalls, but they're just hopes. If I've been reading your posts correctly, I believe you're saying that you don't care if people eat meat as long as we treat the animals we eat humanely. Correct? Okay, how do you propose we go about doing this? We raise animals to eat them. Cattle are raised to be eaten. Chicken are kept for their eggs and their meat. Of course we can always make their deaths quicker, painless and more humane but the fact still remains that we're raising them for food. Do you consider that a humane existence? Just consider what you're proposing before you go posting it on here to get flamed by all of the carnivores. The only way I see your plan working out is in the case of Deer. Here in the south people go deer hunting all of the time. They kill the deer and eat it. Up until that point, the deer lived a normal life in the wild. That's the only humane way of meat that I see. Raising animals on a farm to be used is inhumane in all respects.

I'm right there were Ted Nugent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat. We're designed for it. but shouldn't we have to hunt for our food? That's how we got on top of the food chain, by proving our hunting superiority. Survival of the fittest revolves around strength and will to survive and hunt. How much survival skill do you have when you buy and eat pre packaged meat at your local supermarket?

And for that guy up above who said "Personally, I'd never go veggie/vegan, everything dies anyway, and it's not like the cow's going to mind if I eat it, it'll be long gone by that time..." Do you realize what you're saying? Of course the cow doesn't mind if you eat it after it's dead, but it sure as hell does mind when it's walking into the slaughterhouse! The meat that we eat is given no chance for survival. They live and die for one purpose, our hunger.

I'm very against hunting for sport. However if the animal is being killed for food then that's fine as long as it hasn't suffered all of it's life like some animals have living in horrid conditions.

its just the food chain. humans are the biggest and most powerful predators so we just eat all sorts of animals.. its something natural in us.

however it is kind of horrible how much humans think themselves superior to other animals, yeah we are if not things wouldnt be the way they are, but that doesnt mean we get to treat animals like ****, they are living creatures too. we're too cruel (to each other as well as to other animals)

animals eat each other in the wild, cause they dont have choice, they just do

humans have the choice between mass producing meat in farms or using the land that is used to fatten cattle for growing fruits and vegatables that can feed the whole world

Seth is correct, if everyone were vegetarian there would easily be enough fruits and vegetables to feed everyone in the world. Cows are also a source of pollution, both in gas and runoff from their feces. However, this does not take into account the profit systems in place for such animal products. Much like the dependency on oil, it's practically impossible to change. The demand for the product is there, so the suppliers will continue to provide.

who says plants don't have a living consiousness too, eating an apple still kills the apple...

Thats is what I was going to say. Plants are living things also so whats the difference.

Also, If we were to never kill another animal, think of how crowded the earth would get. The cows, chickens, turkeys, pigs, and all the other animals would just keep on reproducing and they would be getting overpopulated just like humans are. Where are you going to put them all. Exactly, you have to kill them and then eat them. What else. I can't go more then a day with out eating some kind of meat.

but wouldn't other animals eat the chickens, etc?

but wouldn't other animals eat the chickens, etc?

EXACTLY!!!! Humans are animals too and yes we WOULD eat them.

But other animals would eat them just like they are doing now. Without humans eating them the numbers of the chickens would increase but the number of other animals eating them wouldn't change... why would it?

Example of this.

In my town deer hunting is a big thing. I don't hunt because .. well no one in my family does so i don't. I still bum dear meat off friends however. Back to the point, there is always a limit to how many each person is allowed to kill. Two years ago there was a huge rise (un known reason to me) in the deer population around where I live. Normally that wouldn't matter. But when there is more deer, there is twice as many accidents from people driving down the road with deer standing in the middle of the road. That becomes a real hazard/pain. So the kill limit went up by like one or two so that the population would go down to avoid less accidents.

Point: kill the animals to aviod over population and use what they were ment for.... FOOD.

animals dont cook their food though like humans, animals that eat other animals eat them raw :icon_drib

i mean do we eat them raw? no we cook them

animals dont cook food
Merging doublepost
i really like these discussions alot :)

^That settles it then everyone to the sushi bar.

oh snap you got me, lol sushi:icon_redf

don't people get sick from sushi?

^If they're allergic to fish I would imagine but other than that I have no idea, I wouldn't think so(why would people eat then) unless it's chock full of pesticides or not prepared properly.

well its raw meat so, its full of bacteria and paracites?

^I honestly don't know, I'm actually allergic to fish makes me throw up, bleh!

^ ohh that sucks, I <3 fish, and it's incredibly healthy for you too

It's actually really weird, used to eat it, enjoy it, and everything was fine until the last two times I had it it made me vomit a few hours later so now I just don't eat any seafood altogether.

well its raw meat so, its full of bacteria and paracites?

No, sushi should be safe to eat so long as the restaurant is serving exceptionally fresh fish. That said, it's probably only a good idea to eat sushi at restaurants which are near the coast. If you SMELL FISH at a sushi restaurant, turn around and leave. Fresh fish is odorless.

uhm dont they freeze the fish so the bacteria is killed? i thought i heard something along those lines. they actually shut down restaurants from here that dont kill the bacteria out of the fish i think

How did this thread get turned from the subject of being vegan into a thread about sushi?

I also don't give a **** about the animals, to be honest.

Why the **** should we be worried about how they're treated when we already have enough issues of our own? They're going to die anyway.

I also don't give a **** about the animals, to be honest.

Why the **** should we be worried about how they're treated when we already have enough issues of our own? They're going to die anyway.

While I'm not a vegan/vegetarian nor do I advocate being one I hate the "They're going to die anyway" argument. How would you feel if I came over and shot a family member of yours with the justification of "Well, they were going to die anyway"?

they also slit throat and dippped in scalding water thats what they do to chicken, and a mess of junk

^^
sorry about the fish thing

animals dont cook their food though like humans, animals that eat other animals eat them raw :icon_drib

i mean do we eat them raw? no we cook them

animals dont cook food
Merging doublepost
i really like these discussions alot :)

Hmmmm...

animals - eating other animals alive....

humans - eating/cooking animals that are already dead.....

Which sounds worse??? You be the judge.

Your point made no sense at all. But even if you were trying to get something across wth does it matter if you cook it? It is dead so it's not like it's going to feel it unlike getting ate alive by a lion or so on. And plus vegan's/vegitarian's cook the fruits and vegetables and what ever else they eat and those plants are also LIVING organisms. Same thing if you ask ME, maybe different to some but I don't see it.

I wonder if the Vegans in here show the same sort of sympathy towards insects spiders, centipedes, flies, etc

Yes I do. My bedroom often has slugs. I always scoop them onto a piece of paper and walk them across the street to a little garden. Me and my room spiders just kind of hang out. They dont bother anything, I dont bother them. I remove the slugs because they get slime on my stuff.

Another interesting aspect of this discussion is the fact that the domesticated farm animals which we breed for food would not exist in such huge numbers in the wild. A common justification for killing them is they wouldn't be alive without humans creating the environment for them and feeding them. We allow them to live, provide the means for them to live, so that we can eat them. I also think that if I were in an environment in which I needed to find food for myself, and an animal such as a cow were available, I'd find a way to kill it and cook it...

There's nothing like a really good steak. I go for the Victoria center-cut fillet at Outback Steakhouse, medium, with the garlic mashed potatoes.

At the same time, I have an uncle who grew up on a cattle farm. He says after spending an entire season with the cows a person begins to know them individually, and that they have "personalities," or at least distinct behavior patterns. Sometimes one or two would really become my uncle's "friends," interacting with him regularly on the job. Then, as they are being herded into the slaughterhouse, the awareness of what is happening sweeps across the herd. A tangible panic goes through the animals. Cows are aware enough of life to fear for it...

The spots on a cow are as distinct and individual as fingerprints.

You have nice ideals Snowfalls, but they're just hopes. If I've been reading your posts correctly, I believe you're saying that you don't care if people eat meat as long as we treat the animals we eat humanely. Correct? Okay, how do you propose we go about doing this? We raise animals to eat them. Cattle are raised to be eaten. Chicken are kept for their eggs and their meat. Of course we can always make their deaths quicker, painless and more humane but the fact still remains that we're raising them for food. Do you consider that a humane existence? Just consider what you're proposing before you go posting it on here to get flamed by all of the carnivores. The only way I see your plan working out is in the case of Deer. Here in the south people go deer hunting all of the time. They kill the deer and eat it. Up until that point, the deer lived a normal life in the wild. That's the only humane way of meat that I see. Raising animals on a farm to be used is inhumane in all respects.

I'm right there were Ted Nugent. There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat. We're designed for it. but shouldn't we have to hunt for our food? That's how we got on top of the food chain, by proving our hunting superiority. Survival of the fittest revolves around strength and will to survive and hunt. How much survival skill do you have when you buy and eat pre packaged meat at your local supermarket?

And for that guy up above who said "Personally, I'd never go veggie/vegan, everything dies anyway, and it's not like the cow's going to mind if I eat it, it'll be long gone by that time..." Do you realize what you're saying? Of course the cow doesn't mind if you eat it after it's dead, but it sure as hell does mind when it's walking into the slaughterhouse! The meat that we eat is given no chance for survival. They live and die for one purpose, our hunger.

i understand what your saying and i agree that eating animals after they've had a good life seems a bit whack. And yes raising animals for food is denying the animals right to life and making out we own them and they are on this earth for us.
But i'm trying to be realistic. The minute you mention treating animals nicely everyone starts saying "hey dont you be touching my meat a-hole, i'll rip ya freaking neck out if you put any restrictions, i eat what i like so shut the hell up.

but really whats the big deal.
do you think it's impossible for some tighter regulations such as all chicken must be free range. We've landed on the moon remember.
Sure the price of chicken would go up but dont we owe something to the chickens, they dont get paid for their suffering and the farmer takes all the credit.
I dont think hunting is a humane way to kill. I think we're past that point in civilisation.
My uncle owns a hoobie farm and his cows have it great. Way more room than they need, plenty of shady gum trees and sheltered areas and a little creek down a valley. I dont know how humanely they are killed but i can see that their life is good so thats half i what i wanted.

I still dont understand why people would be against tighter regulations to keep animals in normal non stressful circumstances.

Like i said before, a long time ago we couldnt care less about mental people because they couldnt express their pain and they didnt have the same intelligence and awareness as normal people. Thats why we chained them up in cellars or in horrible mental wards where they suffered though no fault of their own.


I also don't give a **** about the animals, to be honest.

Why the **** should we be worried about how they're treated when we already have enough issues of our own? They're going to die anyway.

like i said before, why should we waste our money building you a skatepark when there are bigger issues in the world?
Or why should i care about anyone when i got problems of my own?
Or why should we research a cure for epilepsy when aids is more of a problem?
Or why should we cure aids. lets just kill all of the sick weak and crap people on earth (who are gonna die anyway) and have a superior society

I wonder if the Vegans in here show the same sort of sympathy towards insects spiders, centipedes, flies, etc

yep, I have a huge spider in my living room, she takes care of the little bugs FOR me :tongue:

Ok, I get the point on why some people go Veggie. I don't understand why go Vegan? It's not like it hurts a cow to get milked, Doesn't hurt a chicken to lay eggs, They do it all the time. Bee's collect honey why is it bad to use something that doesn't hurt or effect the animals?

Wait, how do you vegans feel about killing germs and bacteria or other stuff like that. Everyone does it. And yes they are also living things. If you get a cold or any other cause of being real sick you take medicine to KILL those germs. When you guys wash your hands, YOU KILL the germs.

Wait, how do you vegans feel about killing germs and bacteria or other stuff like that. Everyone does it. And yes they are also living things. If you get a cold or any other cause of being real sick you take medicine to KILL those germs. When you guys wash your hands, YOU KILL the germs.

I never realized that, Awsome im a germ KILLA

i have a point to add about animals eatting animals,

okay you say its in nature for humans(which are animals) to eat animals?

but i dont think getting meat from a supermarket is very natural, your not hunting, its not the same. If we want to hunt shouldn't we hunt like the animals, without artifical weapons like guns?

just adding :icon_hug:
Merging doublepost
im not vegan, im vegatarian(sp?)

i have a point to add about animals eatting animals,

okay you say its in nature for humans(which are animals) to eat animals?

but i dont think getting meat from a supermarket is very natural, your not hunting, its not the same. If we want to hunt shouldn't we hunt like the animals, without artifical weapons like guns?
To be completely honest this argument seems completely irrelevant and slightly idiotic.

I see no sense in telling people that they should hunt without gun or weapons etc because it's not "natural". The human species is a species that is more adept at using tools and I don't see the sense in not using those skills that we have naturally. We have greater intelligence to create and use tools because we evolved that way for a reason and evolution is completely natural. I would also like to point out that it is natural for us to eat meat, especially cooked meat as our appendix has naturally diminished over time.

Now what seems more natural?

oh okay, so you saying the mind is our natural weapon? i agree

but what about the part, about us getting the meat from supermarkets?

What about it? I honestly don't care much for this debate it just seems that you make up some of the most ridiculous arguments against eating meat. Personally I think Noj summed up the domestication and killing animals so they can be sold in a supermarket:

Another interesting aspect of this discussion is the fact that the domesticated farm animals which we breed for food would not exist in such huge numbers in the wild. A common justification for killing them is they wouldn't be alive without humans creating the environment for them and feeding them. We allow them to live, provide the means for them to live, so that we can eat them. I also think that if I were in an environment in which I needed to find food for myself, and an animal such as a cow were available, I'd find a way to kill it and cook it...

oppps, sorry <SP:)

I can now see why FFC & others are vegans

http://www.meat.org/

Isn't a vegan and a vegetarian different.?

I can now see why FFC & others are vegans

http://www.meat.org/

that is disgusting beyond belief. No person should have to watch that let alone no animal should have to suffer that. I cried when the animals started screaming. I just wanted to beat those people up and take the poor animals home with me and pat them and give them some treats.
I didnt know that crap was going on.


There's no need for this thread to go on after that video.
There's an old saying which goes something like,.. the best judge of a mans character is how he treats those he doesn't have to treat well.
If you dont care how animals are treated you're insensitive scum and yes, i am judging you.

Isn't a vegan and a vegetarian different.?

vegetarians don't eat animals
vegans don't eat any animal products at all