No.. I don't have any... I've looked.. Can't find a tiny piece of evidence.

But if you have any, I'd love for you to post it here.

www.bible.com

I read the title and I was like "omqwtf berishman a believer?"

nahhhh nigga.

www.bible.com

The Bible can't even honestly be considered evidence.

Without any historical proof that those events happened, The Bible remains nothing more than a fairy tale.

:)

so true.

there really isn't any.
unless someone has a picture with god, or has any evidence.
which is somewhat impossible ?
lol.

lukeasy you white
you sound like a moron saying nigga

^ spam? ;)

yeah, the common reply to an evolutionist's arguement is "well it says clearly in the bible that..."

oh really? i see much the same ammount of evidence for Islam as well, then, yes?

"well it says clearly in the qu'ran that..."

but the bible is God's word!

but the qu'ran is muhammed's word!

but God is God!

oh..ouch... you got me..

Oh, and if you intend on posting any nonsense like Pascal's Wager.. you'd better think twice, as most of those types of arguments have fatal flaws.

:)

Yeah i really cant give you any evidence. My link was a joke. I believe in him though.

http://temple3.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/jessica-alba-wallpapers-3.jpg

you make this too easy

I'd like to see some hard evidence that God or Gods don't exist....there's no real evidence either way so let people believe what thay want to believe. It doesn't affect you whether another person believes in a higher power or more than one higher power so why are you so bent on trying to make people not belive. Just don't let it get to you :)
Personally I think this is kind of a **** move on your part, plus you believe in the "flying spaghetti monster" and even though I think that's kind of dumb and there's no proof of it existing I don't tell you not to believe in it...

By the way, I'm NOT a christian, but I am pretty religious
Merging doublepost
ahaha IskateZero yeah there's your proof!!

there needs to be no proof the FSM is real. He just is.

I'd like to see some hard evidence that God or Gods don't exist....there's no real evidence either way so let people believe what thay want to believe. It doesn't affect you whether another person believes in a higher power or more than one higher power so why are you so bent on trying to make people not belive. Just don't let it get to you :)
Personally I think this is kind of a **** move on your part, plus you believe in the "flying spaghetti monster" and even though I think that's kind of dumb and there's no proof of it existing I don't tell you not to believe in it...

By the way, I'm NOT a christian, but I am pretty religious

Im pretty sure that he wasnt. I think he just wants evidence d00d.

Yeah i really cant give you any evidence. My link was a joke. I believe in him though.

As great as you are KrispKicks, I've got to debate this.
;)


With absolutely no evidence that God exists, what compels you to believe in him?

Did your parents teach you to believe in him?


Because what would happen if I taught my kids that the FSM was ACTUALLY the creator of the Universe?

At first, much like you probably did when you first heard the idea of an invisible man living in the sky, they would be rightfully skeptical.

However, after a few years of brainwashing..

They'd be preaching the gospel of the FSM to their friends.

and if there were enough believers of the FSM, they'd surely ignore all contradicting evidence that made their happy little delusion seem fake, wouldn't they?

As great as you are KrispKicks, I've got to debate this.
;)


With absolutely no evidence that God exists, what compels you to believe in him?

Did your parents teach you to believe in him?


Because what would happen if I taught my kids that the FSM was ACTUALLY the creator of the Universe?

At first, much like you probably did when you first heard the idea of an invisible man living in the sky, they would be rightfully skeptical.

However, after a few years of brainwashing..

They'd be preaching the gospel of the FSM to their friends.

and if there were enough believers of the FSM, they'd surely ignore all contradicting evidence that made their happy little delusion seem fake, wouldn't they?

I dont even know.

Pretty much i fall back on him when i need help ya know?
Whether hes real or not it just helps.

soooooo.

Get off my nuts dude. :)

lol, in the episode of south park where the whole imagination land took place... well... god (or maybe it was jesus...samething) was there. That really doesn't do anything for this thread but I thought it was funny.

Fogle, First off, there are THOUSANDS of pieces of evidence that God doesn't exist. It would require an entirely different thread and probably take up too much bandwidth for skaterscafe to handle (just trying to be illustrative here. ;) )


plus you believe in the "flying spaghetti monster" and even though I think that's kind of dumb and there's no proof of it existing I don't tell you not to believe in it...


PRECISELY!

You currently think the idea of a flying spaghetti monster is ridiculous, but in a few years, as the number of believers increase, you may still not believe it, but I guarantee we'll have political influence! Much like what happened over the years with Christianity.

Let me ask you fogle.


If I start teaching my kids that the FSM touched them with His Noodly Appendage, and I make my kids preach that to your kids, what will your reaction be?

Now consider what you would think if someone's kids talked to your kids about God?

Same thing. Only more people believe in one imaginary creature than the other.

ahah i love how serious he is.

but i have to agree with him tho.
like there really isn't any physical evidence that god exists.

On a serious note, you can't find any though, and you know that.. so why ask?

I dont even know.

Pretty much i fall back on him when i need help ya know?
Whether hes real or not it just helps.

soooooo.

Get off my nuts dude. :)

I'm walking down from your nuts now..
Just one more thing.


You can get the same comfort from a rock dude.

I guarantee you, if you pray to a rock, and you honestly believe that that rock gives a DAMN what you are saying, you will feel just as comforted as you did when speaking with "God".

The entire "personal deity" is based on psychological hallucinations.

*We're finished now KrispyKicks, you may exit through the back door if you like.*

;)

I'm walking down from your nuts now..
Just one more thing.


You can get the same comfort from a rock dude.

I guarantee you, if you pray to a rock, and you honestly believe that that rock gives a DAMN what you are saying, you will feel just as comforted as you did when speaking with "God".

The entire "personal deity" is based on psychological hallucinations.

*We're finished now KrispyKicks, you may exit through the back door if you like.*

;)

But nah seriously man. It does help out to believe in him when im in a sticky spot. And you know, Oh "haha funny rock dude" but that obviously wouldnt help.

God may not be real. But its something to fall back on. That may be all he really is. But id be damned if it didnt serve just that purpose.

but he isn't always there to "fall back on" tho.

when i was going through my 2 years of my depression, i prayed for so damn long, and i just felt even worse afterwards, because i felt as if no one was answering anything.


hense why i am now athiest. lol.

On a serious note, you can't find any though, and you know that.. so why ask?
It's a bit of a rhetorical question... or, rather, a rhetorical request.

There will be people that come in here with arguments they think stand a chance against the theory of evolution, but I have never found one that I haven't been able to disprove.

So, If nothing else, people will enter with such a fallacious argument as "Pascal's Wager" and come to realize that it was based on a facetious idea, and holds no truth whatsoever.
Merging doublepost
But nah seriously man. It does help out to believe in him when im in a sticky spot. And you know, Oh "haha funny rock dude" but that obviously wouldnt help.

God may not be real. But its something to fall back on. That may be all he really is. But id be damned if it didnt serve just that purpose.

You don't have to read arguments I pose from now on, but I'm using your post to illustrate a point. mmkay hun?
;)

Yes, God may not be real, in fact, its highly improbably that he is real.

I honestly believe that a belief in God is a weakness. When you think God is comforting you, its actually YOU comforting YOU.

You don't need comfort from an imaginary being, just as you don't need comfort from spongebob.

You have so much more control over your life than Christianity allows you to.
As an atheist, you have one chance at life. There is no after-life.

As a Christian.. I was happy for a while.. but absolutely distraught for the rest.


As an Atheist, I'm nothing but happy. All the time.

:)

I swear you should be an occupational therapist. lmao


As an Atheist, I'm nothing but happy. All the time.

:)

Daamnn straight !

It's a bit of a rhetorical question... or, rather, a rhetorical request.

There will be people that come in here with arguments they think stand a chance against the theory of evolution, but I have never found one that I haven't been able to disprove.

So, If nothing else, people will enter with such a fallacious argument as "Pascal's Wager" and come to realize that it was based on a facetious idea, and holds no truth whatsoever.
Merging doublepost


You don't have to read arguments I pose from now on, but I'm using your post to illustrate a point. mmkay hun?
;)

Yes, God may not be real, in fact, its highly improbably that he is real.

I honestly believe that a belief in God is a weakness. When you think God is comforting you, its actually YOU comforting YOU.

You don't need comfort from an imaginary being, just as you don't need comfort from spongebob.

You have so much more control over your life than Christianity allows you to.
As an atheist, you have one chance at life. There is no after-life.

As a Christian.. I was happy for a while.. but absolutely distraught for the rest.


As an Atheist, I'm nothing but happy. All the time.

:)

Ha. You mine as well keep going cuz im dam close to becoming an atheist myself...Although i dont like the sound of it. :(

I have prayed and prayed for signs of god but he never shows me anything...

dammit.

Have you even looked for God to begin with? I did and snapped a picture of him saving someone:

http://atheist-online.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/fsmcostume.jpg

lukeasy you white
you sound like a moron saying nigga
You act like I really say 'nigga' in person. Regardless, how do you know I didn't grow up with the people from the Jeffersons? I could have been raised black for all you know :P

And ISkateZero, I had to rep you for that post, single best post I've ever seen lmao.

Ha. You mine as well keep going cuz im dam close to becoming an atheist myself...Although i dont like the sound of it. :(

I have prayed and prayed for signs of god but he never shows me anything...

dammit.

What makes atheism sound unappealing?

It's probably what you've been taught about in Church..


I remember the things my pastor said about it..

Heck, I still go to church and sit through it..

:)

BUT I'M HAPPAYYYY
lol

i haven't been to church for about mm, 8 years ?

i haven't been to church for about mm, 8 years ?

Maybe you should give it a try.

Maybe you should give it a try.

i'd rather not go to a place that practices a religion that i am not a part of anymore.

i'd rather not go to a place that practices a religion that i am not a part of anymore.

What compels you to not believe?

What compels you to not believe?

Lack of evidence.

Because in my darkest times of my life when i actually needed to fall back on someone, or something, or anything in that matter, i relied on god. i prayed endless for weeks and weeks. actually. years. and nothing ever happened that showed that i was having any help in my life. i actually became worse, to a point where i almost ended up in a hospital. so i just gave up on this "god" and became an athiest, and have actually became WAY better and have had a better attitude on life.

Yes, but that makes it easy for them. To just say, show me and you can't makes them not believe in something higher?

Yes, but that makes it easy for them. To just say, show me and you can't makes them not believe in something higher?

can you re-word that? i couldnt understand it at all.

well considering i was suicidal during this time and i actually had no one to rely on, and i tried to rely on god, and i ended up feeling let down and worse than ever, yes. your right.

but its not the fact that he didn't show me any connections, its the whole idea of trying to find a way out of my hell hole and stop the torment i was enduring that made me lose all faith in god. and thats when i decided to become athiest.

Because in my darkest times of my life when i actually needed to fall back on someone, or something, or anything in that matter, i relied on god. i prayed endless for weeks and weeks. actually. years. and nothing ever happened that showed that i was having any help in my life. i actually became worse, to a point where i almost ended up in a hospital. so i just gave up on this "god" and became an athiest, and have actually became WAY better and have had a better attitude on life.

Your life wasn't perfect so there must be no God huh?

What compels you to not believe?

Isn't the better question, what compels you to believe? <DN:) Because it's clearly not fact-based evidence. :icon_wink

wow.
definitely not.
my life wasn't perfect from the start, and in the beginning, i was a christian.
its just the events that led up to the point that i wasn't healthy that helped me decide that he wasn't there.

You're not an idiot if you believe, a lot of people we know and like are believers...it's just I hate it how fake people are and pretend that there's a load of evidence for it when there isn't a shred.

If you believe because it gives you solace, all the power to ya...just don't tell me that you know what happens when we die....

obviously not.
its someone's choice to believe.
and i respect that if its there choice, and there religion, yea i will respect that.

Isn't the better question, what compels you to believe? <DN:) Because it's clearly not fact-based evidence. :icon_wink

What makes it not fact based?

the fact that there really is no evidence ?

What makes it not fact based?

you didnt answer the question
and what facts are there to base it on?

i am a christian but whether or not you beleive in god, jesus is a historically accurate figure.
http://www.ici.edu/gql/historical.html

obviously not.
its someone's choice to believe.
and i respect that if its there choice, and there religion, yea i will respect that.

I respect you and your beliefs and I'm not trying to be this crazy religious kid. Honestly i don't go to church but i still believe. It's just how some people can say there is no God like i said because It's easy to do so when they really have no reasoning to not believe.

i know.
But im saying that unless you know exactly what events that had led up to someone's decision, you really can't say that its easy.

sure there are people who just lose belief, but there is always a reason that helps them decide why they have lost there belief in god.

you didnt answer the question
and what facts are there to base it on?

How can you believe in history thousands of years before your birth when theres no way to prove thats what happened?

How can you believe in history thousands of years before your birth when theres no way to prove thats what happened?

because there is evidence, so it CAN be proven.
what evidence is there for your religion, besides the bible

i know.
But im saying that unless you know exactly what events that had led up to someone's decision, you really can't say that its easy.

sure there are people who just lose belief, but there is always a reason that helps them decide why they have lost there belief in god.

Think about it. Is it not easy for you not to believe because God didn't come and fix your life. Why not while he's there put you in a bubble so no harm can ever come your way.

I respect you and your beliefs and I'm not trying to be this crazy religious kid. Honestly i don't go to church but i still believe. It's just how some people can say there is no God like i said because It's easy to do so when they really have no reasoning to not believe.

Do you believe Santa Clause exist?


Because, "It's just how some people can say there is no Santa Clause, like i said because It's easy to do so when they really have no reasoning to not believe.

because there is evidence, so it CAN be proven.
what evidence is there for your religion, besides the bible

What evidence? O we found this stick. He must of done this.... this .... and this..

What evidence? O we found this stick. He must of done this.... this .... and this..

wait, huh?
have you never read a history book?
have you ever visited a national monument?
really, what is wrong with you?

Do you believe Santa Clause exist?


Because, "It's just how some people can say there is no Santa Clause, like i said because It's easy to do so when they really have no reasoning to not believe.

Your comparing a mythical figure in folklore to Religion?

Yes, but that makes it easy for them. To just say, show me and you can't makes them not believe in something higher?

I go to church every sunday.
What do you have to say to me?

wait, huh?
have you never read a history book?
have you ever visited a national monument?
really, what is wrong with you?

I'm just portraying as someone who is a none believer unless there is hardcore evidence.

Your comparing a mythical figure in folklore to Religion?

You're trying to imply it is ridiculous to compare a mythical figure in folklore to religion? I'm offended!

Think about it. Is it not easy for you not to believe because God didn't come and fix your life. Why not while he's there put you in a bubble so no harm can ever come your way.

yes.
since my life is going to be perfect because im in a perfect world, in a perfect life, and am perfect perfect perfect.
now do you HONESTLY think that is possible ?
obviously no.
and of course everyone has bad things happen to them, but its the fact taht i relied on something that wasn't there, when i could have been getting better without relying on god. so it was just a giant waste of time. and maybe if you "think about it", those few times i did go to church, and my heavily christian friend, told me that if you pray, something good will happen ? maybe i believed in that. oooh but wait. god didn't come and fix my perfect life.

Your comparing a mythical figure in folklore to Religion?

Exactly, because they're interchangeable. If they switched the story of Jesus with the story of Santa you'd be telling us the same thing...

Your comparing a mythical figure in folklore to Religion?

Perhaps because from an unbiased point of view they're essentially the same?

What evidence? O we found this stick. He must of done this.... this .... and this..

if your dont belive anything without "hardcore" evidence, you would NOT say this

I go to church every sunday.
What do you have to say to me?

And you don't believe?

if your dont belive anything without "hardcore" evidence, you would NOT say this

I never said i didn't believe in history. Now did i?

Your comparing a mythical figure in folklore to Religion?

What's the difference?

There is NO evidence of God EVER existing.

Jesus existed, sure.

But even in the bible, his birth is told to have happened in entirely different CITIES.

There are stories of Jesus having fairy-like magical powers..


Not to mention the fact that nearly EVERY FLIPPIN' WORD in the Bible is mistranslated from Aramaic.

Beginning with the second word of Genesis 1:1
"In the beginning... "

Properly translated says:
Genesis 1:1
"In a beginning..."

Sounds a lot like "Once upon a time..." doesn't it?

You don't have to believe in every lil thing in the bible.

And you don't believe?

Nope, I'm an atheist.


and before you say "Ohh.. well.. you must be doing something wrong" or "Well you aren't paying attention"

Let me ask you:

What would you have said to me if I said that I go to church every Sunday and I believe?

Surely there would be no further questions from you would there? No challenging of your own beliefs..That would just be blasphemous.
Merging doublepost
You don't have to believe in every lil thing in the bible.

YES YOU DO!

If you are a Christian, and you honestly believe that The Bible is the word of God, then you must take EVERY WORD OF IT LITERALLY!

As a Christian, you can't nitpick what you want to believe.

It's all or nothing.

If you get to nitpick what sounds right, then there is no need for the Bible anyway, after all, If you're already capable of picking what makes sense, and what you should live your life by, then you've already had those ideals in your head.. You didn't need the Bible to tell you.


If you are a Christian, and have any intention of going to heaven, you have to believe EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THE BIBLE.

Otherwise you are doubting the word of GOD HIMSELF, are you not?

Your right about that. But if you told me you did believe then yah this would of ended.

Your right about that. But if you told me you did believe then yah this would have ended.

Exactly.

So basically, you aren't going to heaven.

How does that make you feel?


If you're supposed to believe every word in the bible, then why don't you think Jesus was born in two places?

is there even a heaven ?

http://temple3.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/jessica-alba-wallpapers-3.jpg

You Make This Too Easy
I AM NOW A BELEIVER!

THANK YOU LORD!





I tried to rep you for that, but it wouldn't let me. hahaha.

I never came into this discussion having mass amounts of knowledge about the bible i just wanted to know why you Atheists didn't believe.

why do you christians believe ?

whats your reasoning ?
and don't say because the church said so.
your actual reasons.

I never came into this discussion having mass amounts of knowledge about the bible i just wanted to know why you Atheists didn't believe.


And they did tell you yet for some reason you kept up the stream of questions.

The thing is, there IS no evidence. No evidence = no truth.

I never came into this discussion having mass amounts of knowledge about the bible i just wanted to know why you Atheists didn't believe.

Does anyone actually read my posts? As you can see i didn't ask again, i simply stated why i was here. No one is obliged to respond. And yet you do?

I never came into this discussion having mass amounts of knowledge about the bible i just wanted to know why you Atheists didn't believe.

and, as bbgenyak reminded you, we already told you.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT GOD EXISTS.

Don't tell me I need to have faith either..

because faith is "believing in something for which there is no evidence"

I might as well believe that talking barbie dolls are secretly running the U.S. Government.

That has the same amount of proof as there being a God does.
Merging doublepost
Does anyone actually read my posts? As you can see i didn't ask again, i simply stated why i was here. No one is obliged to respond. And yet you do?

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I tell you that we aren't trying to come off with any degree of hostility.

:)

*refers to disclaimer in sig*

I might as well believe that talking barbie dolls are secretly running the U.S. Government.
Don't tell anyone but they are!!!! And they are watching our every action!!!!

you didnt answer my question tho.

why do you believe in god ?

So let me ask you this. You believe in jesus but not God?

is there even a heaven ?

Well if you believe in the bible there is, and if you believe in the bible no one here is going there. The bible doesn't teach that people go to heaven when they die, that was just made up by the Catholic church way back when in order to gain them more power and has been brought down through the centuries. Same goes for the hellfire doctrine. So don't worry, whether your Christian or not you're going to hell which is simply an eternal state of unconsciousness. A lot like before you were born. Well unless some other religion is correct and you actually get to become one with the noodle when you die.

Don't tell anyone but they are!!!! And they are watching our every action!!!!

OH NOEZ!

Kan dey reed muh thots tu?

Well if you believe in the bible there is, and if you believe in the bible no one here is going there. The bible doesn't teach that people go to heaven when they die, that was just made up by the Catholic church way back when in order to gain them more power and has been brought down through the centuries. Same goes for the hellfire doctrine. So don't worry, whether your Christian or not you're going to hell which is simply an eternal state of unconsciousness. A lot like before you were born. Well unless some other religion is correct and you actually get to become one with the noodle when you die.

ahaha alright.
thanks
its either hell, or cremation. lol.

you didnt answer my question tho.

why do you believe in god ?

Because i have faith.

So let me ask you this. You believe in jesus but not God?
I KNOW Jesus existed. But as for these so called miracles he performed, there is no historical evidence that that EVER occured, it was nothing more than the authors of the new testament trying to make it seem as though the prophecies of the old testament had been fulfilled.


Well unless some other religion is correct and you actually get to become one with the noodle when you die.

We can only pray, to his Noodly Goodness.

OH NOEZ!

Kan dey reed muh thots tu?

YES!!! And if you don't do what they want they'll send you to a fiery prison when you die!! Otherwise you get to go to paradise with them BUT only if you do EXACTLY what they say without any questioning.
Merging doublepost
Because i have faith.

Why do you have faith?

Basically Jesus was just like any other person like everyone on this forum.
and like berishman said, "there is no historical evidence that that EVER occured, it was nothing more than the authors of the new testament trying to make it seem as though the prophecies of the old testament had been fulfilled."

Because i have faith.

"Faith- A belief in something for which there is absolutely no evidence"


Let me ask you this then.

If someone tells you, as I told you in my above example, That they had "FAITH" that talking barbie dolls were secretly running the U.S. Government, you would think that person was CRAZY. But they would think they know what they are talking about.

It's easy to believe in your own delusions/hallucinations.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is, than to persist in a delusion, however satisfying and reassuring"
-Carl Sagan

Basically Jesus was just like any other person like everyone on this forum.
and like berishman said, "there is no historical evidence that that EVER occured, it was nothing more than the authors of the new testament trying to make it seem as though the prophecies of the old testament had been fulfilled."

Thanx for for saying the same thing berishman said. Feel smart?

i wasn't really in the mood to put it in my own words.
schools out.
**** education.

And thank youu :)
i do feel smart

"Faith- A belief in something for which there is absolutely no evidence"


Let me ask you this then.

If someone tells you, as I told you in my above example, That they had "FAITH" that talking barbie dolls were secretly running the U.S. Government, you would think that person was CRAZY. But they would think they know what they are talking about.

It's easy to believe in your own delusions/hallucinations.

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is, than to persist in a delusion, however satisfying and reassuring"
-Carl Sagan

Faith is believing in something that has yet to be proven. So by saying that there is still reason to believe.

Thanx for for saying the same thing berishman said. Feel smart?

Speaking of intelligence and it's correlation with the belief of an imaginary man living in the sky..

http://media.gallup.com/POLL/Releases/pr060308bii.gif
Merging doublepost
Faith is believing in something that has yet to be proven. So by saying that there is still reason to believe.

Yeah, there is also still reason for me to believe that the barbies are in complete control of our country.

Perhaps I should just worship them until there is evidence, yes?

Go for it.

^Are you really that apathetic?

You still haven't shown me any proof of God's existence either.
Merging doublepost
Come on people, I'm waiting on all of your interesting "Prove Berishman Wrong" hypotheses that hint at the possibility of a God.

I'd love to disprove them.

:)

^^

your having fun, now aren't you.

Yes, Yes I am.

:)

This isn't going to end lol.

small chance that this will end.

there is hope tho.

at somepoint...

This isn't going to end lol.

I'm still interested to see what you have to add to this.

Obviously, either you are a truly devout Christian, or I am terribly mistaken.


I'd like to know what started you to believe in the personal God as portrayed by The Bible...or..
Rather..
The New Testament.

Since everyone seems to prefer to ignore the sadomasochistic God of the old testament.

I was raised in a catholic family and that wasn't why i believe today it only made me as an individual look at life and think of something higher. And I've come to the conclusion that God is real and he is my savior.

how is he your saviour ?

I was raised in a catholic family and that wasn't why i believe today it only made me as an individual look at life and think of something higher. And I've come to the conclusion that God is real and he is my savior.

Ahh..

So your parents were polytheists? believing in... 5,120 gods..
is that about right?

I haven't brushed up on how many new saints have been created this week.

Anyway, How, may I ask, did you come to this conclusion?

how is he your saviour ?

Why ask such idiotic questions?

Since everyone seems to prefer to ignore the sadomasochistic God of the old testament.

God wasn't sadomasochistic. He simply was smiting them with love. :icon_bat:

why are you not answering the question ?

just answer the damn question.
im not really up to par on this "god" so to speak.

God wasn't sadomasochistic. He simply was smiting them with love. :icon_bat:

ahahaha OH LAWD.

Somebody rep this man for me, will ya?

I'm off to bed. I shall return to this thread in the morning.

Berishman - out.

haha
;)

ahahaha OH LAWD.

Somebody rep this man for me, will ya?

I'm off to bed. I shall return to this thread in the morning.

Berishman - out.

haha
;)

Actually I have things to do, so i also shall return later. Pce..

badda bump.

WO0o0o0o0o0o0o

oooh my.

Mymymy.

Look at all this evidence, kids.

it's just flooding this thread.

hot damn.

Since Skata didn't answer your question about why Jesus is our saviour, he is our saviour because he died on the cross so we could be forgiven for our sins. Without this happening we would not be able to be forgiven our sins. I don't want to debate, I was just trying to clear things up for you.

oh i know about jesus.

i'm saying god.
lol.
like why god is his saviour.

Since Skata didn't answer your question about why Jesus is our saviour, he is our saviour because he died on the cross so we could be forgiven for our sins. Without this happening we would not be able to be forgiven our sins. I don't want to debate, I was just trying to clear things up for you.

Cool. Nice story.

Got any historical evidence to back it up?

why do you christians believe ?

whats your reasoning ?
and don't say because the church said so.
your actual reasons.

Others, I have no clue, but I'll tell you why I believe. There was a time in my life when I was depressed and suicidal, on drugs, a porn addict, cussed like a sailor, a liar, a theif, and more. I was to the point within a few months surly I'd've been dead. But one night, March 10, 2007, Jesus called to me (not literally, but in heart. As the Bible says "He stands at the door and knocks...") and I answered his call and called out to him to take my life that I'd messed up in my state of rebellion. And he answered. In an instant, God set me free from all that! I was instantly given joy beyond belief and God completely changed me. I had no desire for drugs or porn. Cussing ceased to be a part of my vocabulary (which was the weirdest for those who knew me). I no longer had suicidal thoughts. I was set free! That same night my friend, filled with the Holy Ghost, prayed for a person in the name of Jesus who he'd never met to be healed of a sickness revealed to him by the Spirit. That night that kid was healed of epilepsy. About 3 weeks later, he prayed for a girl with a tumor for her healing. 3 days later, he asked, she said she no longer felt any pain from it, and I assume it was gone. A few months later, that May to be exact, I was praying before bed, and the Holy Ghost led me to call someone from my church and tell them something, "The LORD can open doors that no man can close, and close doors that no man can open." I called and told her, and she said that when I called her and her husband had been praying about a problem with her husbands job. He's a strip miner, and a group of people sued the company for something. If the case went through, they told him he had a high chance of losing his job (notice I knew nothing about this problem when I called, because he'd only been informed that day). He ended up staying, against the wisdom of man, obeying the will of the LORD. The case did go through, but somehow, he was one of the only 10 out of I THINK 30 who kept his job. Then, 9 got paycuts, but he got a pay raise! A few months later, he got promoted and got a free truck out of the deal. God knew what he was talking about. And I've seen plenty of stuff like this. I know it isn't hardcore evidence, as Razz has said MANY of times, but to answer your question, all that is why I believe that YHWH God rules over heaven and earth, and Jesus Christ his son came in the form of a man, and lived a perfect life on this earth before being flogged and cruicified by the Roman govt., facing the worse death penalty legally given ever, if not the worst period, and took upon himself the sin of mankind and rose from the grave on the 3rd day, before ascending 40 days later to the 3rd heaven where he took his throne on the right hand of God the Father, and one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Cool. Nice story.

Got any historical evidence to back it up?
For the crucifixion? Yeah. Not a direct record (which was probably destroyed in the fire of Rome during Nero's reign), but a semi-direct source:


Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), historian of ancient Rome:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

Notice the bolded part.

^For christ's sake, will you quit saying you were on drugs? Taking Benedryl pills every now and then doesn't mean your a drug addict, I don't know how many times we have to tell you that.

^For christ's sake, will you quit saying you were on drugs? Taking Benedryl pills every now and then doesn't mean your a drug addict, I don't know how many times we have to tell you that.

When did I say in that paragraph I was a drug addict? I said I was on drugs. Not a drug addict. On drugs, as in, I really loved my pills. I would get high just for the sake of getting high. Read the paragraph. I said "on drugs" not addict.

^You always talk about how you "Used to be a drug addict", or "on drugs". You make people think you smoked weed and stuff like that, not popped some allergy pills.

wow.

i honestly thought you meant drugs as ( like s_k said) weed or cocaine.

not allergy pills ?

wow izzy, i know 12 year old girls who do gnarlier drugs than you, lol

same here..
:S

but can you actually get high off of allergy pills ?

i always thought you just get really sick. . .

^Have you ever taken Benedryl? It makes you all sleepy and feel funny. That's easy to get addicted to, but he needs to stop saying he was on drugs, because it's extremely misleading.

same here..
:S

but can you actually get high off of allergy pills ?

i always thought you just get really sick. . .

http://www.erowid.org/pharms/diphenhydramine/diphenhydramine.shtml

There's evidence on that. Though it's still pretty pathetic lol :p.

no i have never taken benadryl.

and im not going to open a link , its a waste of time.

Benedryl is an allergy pill, and a sleeping pill basically put into one. If you've never taken a sleeping pill, well then there's no other way I can describe the feeling to you. I have to take sleeping pills often though due to insomnia, haha.

lol.

yea i have insomnia too. but its because of my medication. i just take it too late in the day. lol.

but i have friends who take it and who have told me waht its like, so don't worry about it :P

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1039/hammerbalancecj6wt3.jpg

I'm not gonna bother reading all seven pages of this, but i beg you, show me prove that God doesn't exist.

By the way, just like proving he does exist, it is impossible. So, its high time you shut the **** up.

I bet there is more books on Santa Claus. Even look at all the movies about him. And there actually was a claus (forget his first name) a long time ago that was just a normal human. This whole santa claus stuff usually dies out when we get older because the human mind develops with age and you realise that it is impossible for him to go to all the house's in one night. (I could do a lot more reasons not to believe but don't feel like typing alot.) Same with god, shouldn't as the human mind develops, people start to understand that there is to much in this universe and to much un known stuff that how would it make sense for a god to be real. Also like santa going to every house in one night, how could a god answer all prayers. They are both brought out to be spirits or something. (i think anyway) So in my opinion, If you believe in one of those, there is no reason why you would not believe the other.

Edit - aha Chris Cringle I think it is!!

well santa claus actually evolved from a pope or priest (i forget what he was) named st. Nicholas. lol. He just passed presents out to the unfortunate kids. this is all from the top of my head that my opa told me. lol. i think he did this on the 6th of December, and i guess his named evolved to santa claus (if you said st. nicholas fast it becomes santa claus.. i had too much time on my hands when i was younger. lmao) i don't know exactly why santa claus became infamous for handing presents on the 25th of december.. hm . lol.

But i completely back you up there MysterySk8er3.

I know this is late
but the bible proves that God is real as much as Harry Potter books prove that Voldemort is real.

just like proving he does exist, it is impossible.


I beg to differ
http://newmedia.funnyjunk.com/pictures/mcdonalds.jpg

Haha ISZ! ^

Anyways, as was said either way it is impossible to prove it wrong, or right. Quit making it sound like you are smarter than us because we can not find evidence God is real, find some evidence that says God isn't. Right now, do it. Oh wait, you can't. So either way it is impossible to find evidence. The Earth and all things around me are evidence of a God to me, and the bible only furthers my faith. Call it stupid or whatever, its just what I believe.

Haha ISZ! ^

Anyways, as was said either way it is impossible to prove it wrong, or right. Quit making it sound like you are smarter than us because we can not find evidence God is real, find some evidence that says God isn't. Right now, do it. Oh wait, you can't. So either way it is impossible to find evidence. The Earth and all things around me are evidence of a God to me, and the bible only furthers my faith. Call it stupid or whatever, its just what I believe.

No actually it is easier to prove he isnt real then is real. But its impossible to completly 100% prove that he is or isnt real.

well i definitely see hardcore evidence on the "yes he is real" side, compelling enough to be 99.9 repeating % sure

^_^

i myself, am on the fence. not good.

sorry guys, but legitimate proof either way is impossible. evidence does not lead to one side. sure, i can agree that evidence against the bible is enormous. But the bible isn't god. it's up to the individual to look at their surroundings and decide how to interpret.

XM1j-5EpHUQ
Merging doublepost
Others, I have no clue, but I'll tell you why I believe. There was a time in my life when I was depressed and suicidal, on drugs, a porn addict, cussed like a sailor, a liar, a theif, and more. I was to the point within a few months surly I'd've been dead. But one night, March 10, 2007, Jesus called to me (not literally, but in heart. As the Bible says "He stands at the door and knocks...") and I answered his call and called out to him to take my life that I'd messed up in my state of rebellion. And he answered. In an instant, God set me free from all that! I was instantly given joy beyond belief and God completely changed me. I had no desire for drugs or porn. Cussing ceased to be a part of my vocabulary (which was the weirdest for those who knew me). I no longer had suicidal thoughts. I was set free! That same night my friend, filled with the Holy Ghost, prayed for a person in the name of Jesus who he'd never met to be healed of a sickness revealed to him by the Spirit. That night that kid was healed of epilepsy. About 3 weeks later, he prayed for a girl with a tumor for her healing. 3 days later, he asked, she said she no longer felt any pain from it, and I assume it was gone. A few months later, that May to be exact, I was praying before bed, and the Holy Ghost led me to call someone from my church and tell them something, "The LORD can open doors that no man can close, and close doors that no man can open." I called and told her, and she said that when I called her and her husband had been praying about a problem with her husbands job. He's a strip miner, and a group of people sued the company for something. If the case went through, they told him he had a high chance of losing his job (notice I knew nothing about this problem when I called, because he'd only been informed that day). He ended up staying, against the wisdom of man, obeying the will of the LORD. The case did go through, but somehow, he was one of the only 10 out of I THINK 30 who kept his job. Then, 9 got paycuts, but he got a pay raise! A few months later, he got promoted and got a free truck out of the deal. God knew what he was talking about. And I've seen plenty of stuff like this. I know it isn't hardcore evidence, as Razz has said MANY of times, but to answer your question, all that is why I believe that YHWH God rules over heaven and earth, and Jesus Christ his son came in the form of a man, and lived a perfect life on this earth before being flogged and cruicified by the Roman govt., facing the worse death penalty legally given ever, if not the worst period, and took upon himself the sin of mankind and rose from the grave on the 3rd day, before ascending 40 days later to the 3rd heaven where he took his throne on the right hand of God the Father, and one day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


For the crucifixion? Yeah. Not a direct record (which was probably destroyed in the fire of Rome during Nero's reign), but a semi-direct source:


Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), historian of ancient Rome:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

Notice the bolded part.

For ****s sake, you weren't a drug addict, shut up. If you say that again I'm coming over with a hammer.

^YAY!

haha


WOW.


Yes, I NEVER said that God could be proven to either exist, or not exist, HOWEVER there is loads of evidence that takes the probabilty of his existence down, and NO evidence that raises the probability up.

Every flawed argument that is posed in God's favor, is an argument that is in favor of the absence of a God.

I really don't have much time to talk right now, but I'll be back with a more detailed version of what I'm talking about later.
Merging doublepost
I'm not gonna bother reading all seven pages of this, but i beg you, show me prove that God doesn't exist.

By the way, just like proving he does exist, it is impossible. So, its high time you shut the **** up.

You're the one that subscribed to these forums. If you don't want to see threads like this, don't click on them. It's as simple as that.
You seem to think you speak for everyone when you say that razz and I need to stop posting threads like this, because no one wants to hear it.. But think about that for a second.
Obviously people want to here it because they clicked on this thread, and took the time to respond, but instead of dealing with their comments/questions, I have to deal with your little remark.

As for proof that God doesn't exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
The argument from design, often posed by Christian zealots, is one that makes the points that
A) Things look designed, surely they must have been
B) Things are complex, so something more complex must have made them

The argument in itself was originally supposed to be proof of God, but it ends up turning into proof God DOESN'T exist.

If humans are truly as complex as theist seem to think we are (which, in comparison with the rest of the universe, I don't think we are all that complex) Then we must have had something MORE complex to create us.


But surely, If complex things require a more complex designer, then the designer must require an even MORE complex designer.
This is known as an infinite regress.


Evolution, or natural selection, more specifically, SOLVES THAT PROBLEM.
It's the idea that simple things, can indeed create more complex things.

If you break it down to layman's terms, you can think of it as (PURELY for the sake of this example, I realize this is NOT natural selection.. lol)
You can think of it as two SIMPLE atoms of Hydrogen bonding with one SIMPLE atom of Oxygen, creating a more complex, covalently bonded molecule of water.

This is just one "proof" off of the top of my head.

I'm not going to include any more though, I have so many proofs that god doesn't exist that I'm going to give them a thread of their own.


:)

I'm not gonna bother reading all seven pages of this, but i beg you, show me prove that God doesn't exist.

Show me proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

Go ahead...

cmon, it's easy isn't it?

Well, I'm not so convinced he doesn't exist. You have a better chance of seeing him than you do of seeing Hilary Clinton win President.

Well, I'm not so convinced he doesn't exist. You have a better chance of seeing him than you do of seeing Hilary Clinton win President.

The FSM or God?

^YAY!

haha


WOW.


Yes, I NEVER said that God could be proven to either exist, or not exist, HOWEVER there is loads of evidence that takes the probabilty of his existence down, and NO evidence that raises the probability up.

Every flawed argument that is posed in God's favor, is an argument that is in favor of the absence of a God.

I really don't have much time to talk right now, but I'll be back with a more detailed version of what I'm talking about later.
Merging doublepost


You're the one that subscribed to these forums. If you don't want to see threads like this, don't click on them. It's as simple as that.
You seem to think you speak for everyone when you say that razz and I need to stop posting threads like this, because no one wants to hear it.. But think about that for a second.
Obviously people want to here it because they clicked on this thread, and took the time to respond, but instead of dealing with their comments/questions, I have to deal with your little remark.

As for proof that God doesn't exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
The argument from design, often posed by Christian zealots, is one that makes the points that
A) Things look designed, surely they must have been
B) Things are complex, so something more complex must have made them

The argument in itself was originally supposed to be proof of God, but it ends up turning into proof God DOESN'T exist.

If humans are truly as complex as theist seem to think we are (which, in comparison with the rest of the universe, I don't think we are all that complex) Then we must have had something MORE complex to create us.


But surely, If complex things require a more complex designer, then the designer must require an even MORE complex designer.
This is known as an infinite regress.


Evolution, or natural selection, more specifically, SOLVES THAT PROBLEM.
It's the idea that simple things, can indeed create more complex things.

If you break it down to layman's terms, you can think of it as (PURELY for the sake of this example, I realize this is NOT natural selection.. lol)
You can think of it as two SIMPLE atoms of Hydrogen bonding with one SIMPLE atom of Oxygen, creating a more complex, covalently bonded molecule of water.

This is just one "proof" off of the top of my head.

I'm not going to include any more though, I have so many proofs that god doesn't exist that I'm going to give them a thread of their own.


:)




Nice and all proof that evolution makes more sense than creationism, yet how does that disprove god? it only disproves creationism.
this was exactly what i was saying. You can disprove things related to God, but, just as disproving creationism does not disprove the existence of a God, this does not mean God cannot exist.
There is nothing you can show me that will prove God does not exist, because there is no proof God does not exist. It is as simple as that. You can postulate, gather related information, making strong assumptions but you can never, never prove anything. It will all remain a theory. And yes, i know what a theory is. All the evidence may POINT in one direction, but it can never be conclusive - which is my point.


I'm not the pushover-passive-silent type. If I see something stupid that I don't like (ie this thread) i'm going to say something about it. Don't pull that "if you don't like it, ignore it" bull**** with me, cause it won't fly. Just because people click on your thread does't mean you're ever going to be right. I never claimed to be the voice of the people, as I myself don't need numbers to say what I want. If i say it's high time you shut the **** up, it's cause i believe you - specifically you - are one of the most annoying people i've encountered in years, not because i think everybody agrees with me.

So far, Results are:

FCGB = Win

Berishman = Lose.

:)

Show me proof that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

Go ahead...

cmon, it's easy isn't it?


There is no proof the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, nor proof that it does. So i'll leave it alone, and not try to prove or disprove it, because even though data might lead me in one direction, it will ultimately be an excersize in futility.

Nice and all proof that evolution makes more sense than creationism, yet how does that disprove god? it only disproves creationism.
this was exactly what i was saying. You can disprove things related to God, but, just as disproving creationism does not disprove the existence of a God, this does not mean God cannot exist.

I'm not the pushover-passive-silent type. If I see something stupid that I don't like (ie this thread) i'm going to say something about it. Don't pull that "if you don't like it, ignore it" bull**** with me, cause it won't fly. Just because people click on your thread does't mean you're ever going to be right.

There was PROOF that God cannot exist.

I also related it to Creationism and Evolution.
Shall I bold it out for you?

^YAY!

haha


WOW.


Yes, I NEVER said that God could be proven to either exist, or not exist, HOWEVER there is loads of evidence that takes the probabilty of his existence down, and NO evidence that raises the probability up.

Every flawed argument that is posed in God's favor, is an argument that is in favor of the absence of a God.

I really don't have much time to talk right now, but I'll be back with a more detailed version of what I'm talking about later.
Merging doublepost


You're the one that subscribed to these forums. If you don't want to see threads like this, don't click on them. It's as simple as that.
You seem to think you speak for everyone when you say that razz and I need to stop posting threads like this, because no one wants to hear it.. But think about that for a second.
Obviously people want to here it because they clicked on this thread, and took the time to respond, but instead of dealing with their comments/questions, I have to deal with your little remark.

As for proof that God doesn't exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
The argument from design, often posed by Christian zealots, is one that makes the points that
A) Things look designed, surely they must have been
B) Things are complex, so something more complex must have made them

The argument in itself was originally supposed to be proof of God, but it ends up turning into proof God DOESN'T exist.

If humans are truly as complex as theist seem to think we are (which, in comparison with the rest of the universe, I don't think we are all that complex) Then we must have had something MORE complex to create us.


But surely, If complex things require a more complex designer, then the designer must require an even MORE complex designer.
This is known as an infinite regress.


Evolution, or natural selection, more specifically, SOLVES THAT PROBLEM.
It's the idea that simple things, can indeed create more complex things.

If you break it down to layman's terms, you can think of it as (PURELY for the sake of this example, I realize this is NOT natural selection.. lol)
You can think of it as two SIMPLE atoms of Hydrogen bonding with one SIMPLE atom of Oxygen, creating a more complex, covalently bonded molecule of water.

This is just one "proof" off of the top of my head.

I'm not going to include any more though, I have so many proofs that god doesn't exist that I'm going to give them a thread of their own.




And I have many more, and as I said, once I get them all together in a nice, neat little folder, I'll be typing them out into Word, and copying them onto the café. Until then you're going to have to wait.

Just because people click on your thread does't mean you're ever going to be right.
When did I say "If you click on my thread I'm right."
When did I say that?

Exactly.

fcgb, i beg to differ. razz here gave us a real pic of FSM. ibtl, fools.

^If this thread gets locked, then I have lost all of my faith in the world.

Or..

It gets locked because there was no evidence put forth by Christians.


Then again, Tyler Self is looking at this thread right now, and he usually has something pretty intelligent to say, so we'll see.

:)

blue unicorns > fsm > my dog > god

Berishman.

you lying gooon.

he didn't say anything.

yeah i love how there's 8 pages of squabbling athiests so far. and tons of proof as well for God.


Tyler, please show us something cool ;)

i'm sure razz will have at it soon enough haha

good luck all!

Berishman.

you lying gooon.

he didn't say anything.

WAT!

He looked through the thread and then left apparently.. lol.



to fcgb:

If you see this prior to seeing my response in Razz's thread, head over there.
:)

hahaha.

Your life wasn't perfect so there must be no God huh?

Exactly what I'm understanding from the majority of this thread, which is sheer ignorance. You can ask God for anything, but in order to receive, you must listen to Him, as He listens to you.

You want evidence that God exists? The universe, and all that there is. It is common logic to know that such creations as planets, moons, suns, and galaxies are too complex to be created without a Creator. You want evidence that God exists? How could one God and his one Son convert a third of the world's population? You want evidence that God exists? The three major religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), who all worship the same God, were practiced and are practiced by the majority of the people who have inhabited and who currently inhabit the earth.

I, too, have questioned the existence of God, but there IS evidence. It is impossible to know the power of the Lord, just as it is impossible to know the scale of the universe. In the end, your faith is all that matters, as we will only know the true existence of the Lord when we have passed through our final hour.

If you have any more questions that you think I could help with, feel free to ask. :) There is tons of material on this subject available and lots is worth a read, from both sides of the argument as well. One who is religiously sound questions their faith.

I'm not even going to start on the Universe part.

its makes more sense that science was the "creator" for the most part. i would love to say how it did become, but i had science last semester, so i really don't remember anything from it.

There was PROOF that God cannot exist.

I also related it to Creationism and Evolution.
Shall I bold it out for you?



And I have many more, and as I said, once I get them all together in a nice, neat little folder, I'll be typing them out into Word, and copying them onto the café. Until then you're going to have to wait.


When did I say "If you click on my thread I'm right."
When did I say that?

Exactly.


Again, you are not disproving God. You are disprove creationism. Please, tell me I am not the only person here reading this who realizes that disproving creationism is not disproving God.
In your bolded example, you are disproving irreducible complexity - not God.

Just like that one, all your other examples will not disprove God. They may disprove something "christian zealots" believe in, such as creationism or adam and eve or jesus rising from the dead or any number of things, but they will not and cannot disprove God. It is impossible to disprove god - that is my only statement I am arguing here. Let me lay it out for you.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

I am not picking a side, saying god is real or god is false. I am simply saying it is impossible to know. YOu can believe what you want, evidence can give a 99.9% possibilty, but that is not 100% - that is, it is not fact.


I can tell you this all day, but as long as you're still on the Red Herring fast track, disproving one thing and claiming because A is false, un related B is false, it is useless.
This is your logic.

1. Creationism states that God created people.
2. people were not created by God.
Therefor, God must be false.
However, the correct conclusion to be drawn is creationism is false.

let me give you a different example of what you're doing when you try to disprove God.

1. Jimmy Johns says they hired Karl.
2. Karl was not hired by Jimmy Johns.
Therefor, Karl doesn't exist.
Correct conclusion - Jimmy John's is lying.



Now let me again return my attention to the masses.
Please, tell me I am not the only one who sees how foolish Berishman is being?

FCGB, good post.

fcgb-
I think you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to do here.
I am NOT trying to prove there is no God.
I am NOT trying to prove there is a God.
I am simply asking for historical evidence to sway the argument one way or the other.

Can you deal with that?




To Shredthegnar:

Exactly what I'm understanding from the majority of this thread, which is sheer ignorance. You can ask God for anything, but in order to receive, you must listen to Him, as He listens to you.
I never had problems with my life as a Christian. I was never depressed or any of that. That's not why I turned away from Christianity.
With a better understanding of the Universe, and the way it functions, you require less and less of a supernatural being to make sense of it all.
Also, let's not get started on how useless prayer is.

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer

"Can omniscient God,
who Knows the future,
find The omnipotence
to Change His future mind?"

- Karen Owens


The truth of it is, If God knows the future, you praying for him to change his mind isn't going to do anything, especially considering that there will be others praying for the opposite.

And if you believe that God has some sort of "Master Plan", then you certainly shouldn't be doubting him by praying for something to change.

You want evidence that God exists? The universe, and all that there is. It is common logic to know that such creations as planets, moons, suns, and galaxies are too complex to be created without a Creator.
Unfortunately that isn't so. This is why I brought it up earlier, I knew the argument would be posed. If complex things require an even more complex creator, then surely the complex creator, "God", would require an even more complex creator. I've explained this in further detail in a previous post in this thread.


You want evidence that God exists? How could one God and his one Son convert a third of the world's population? You want evidence that God exists? The three major religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), who all worship the same God, were practiced and are practiced by the majority of the people who have inhabited and who currently inhabit the earth.

"An Idea does not gain truth as it gains followers"
-Amanda Bloom


I, too, have questioned the existence of God, but there IS evidence. It is impossible to know the power of the Lord, just as it is impossible to know the scale of the universe. In the end, your faith is all that matters, as we will only know the true existence of the Lord when we have passed through our final hour. If there is evidence of God's existence, why haven't you shown me any?

If you have any more questions that you think I could help with, feel free to ask. :) There is tons of material on this subject available and lots is worth a read, from both sides of the argument as well. One who is religiously sound questions their faith.
Glad to see someone here questions their own faith. Major props to you.

If it weren't for questioning my faith, I fear that I would still be a Christian right now.

You want evidence that God exists? The universe, and all that there is.

http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm

It is common logic to know that such creations as planets, moons, suns, and galaxies are too complex to be created without a Creator.

You said for something to be created there must be a ceator. Then by your view there must be a creator of that creato then a creator of that creator and then a creator of that creator and then, and then. (lol "and then" from Dude Where's My Car) So basically you proved your self wrong.

How could one God and his one Son convert a third of the world's population?

The majority of the human population has believe in santa claus to at one time. They only beleive in him because adults (preist)/tv(gospal channel?)/book(holy books/bibal) have told them what to believe and they here it from so many people they just tag along looking for something to make them happy. Do YOU beleive in santa claus???

You want evidence that God exists? The three major religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), who all worship the same God, were practiced and are practiced by the majority of the people who have inhabited and who currently inhabit the earth.

How can there be so many different religions? You would think if this whole god/jesus thing was true then everyone would beleive the same thing. How come christians say "god has showed me the way". Then in a different religion "allah has showed me the way". Either one of you bastards are lieing or more reasonably both are lieing.


P.S. - There are just to many unaswered questions about life and the universe that for me at least disproves a god. How can there still be organisms that we have not yet found. There are probably still millions that are deep in the ocean that we can't get to yet. Also I saw on discovery in like 2002 a new species of cat fish was found in the amazon. Proof that we no nothing when you look at how much there is. Also black holes, gamma ray burst, dark matter, and space time just to name a few. Why the hell would a god create that stuff. If he created the human race to live about there lives. WHY WOULD HE GO SO FAR TO CREATE STUFF THAT WE WILL PROBABLY NEVER FIND OUT ABOUT?




Tried to answer (in bold) the best I could. The anwers I did fast so there are probably many mistakes.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE OR DISPROVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.

I am not picking a side, saying god is real or god is false. I am simply saying it is impossible to know. YOu can believe what you want, evidence can give a 99.9% possibilty, but that is not 100% - that is, it is not fact.

I have never said "God 100% does not exist" - you can not make an absolute statement like that. And yes, you can disprove creationism and still believe in God.

The reason I'm not on your side in this debate is because I hate the "You can't disprove God!" statement - it's sort of like someone going into a thread about basketball and stating the ball is orange. Everyone knows that, but it doesn't mean you can't debate it. You implied that debating it is futile, how so? Everything you debate must have a conclusion?

I haven't read all of Berishman's posts but I know, for myself, that the reason I debate against God isn't because I know 100%, it's because I go with what is most likely...and God, MOST LIKELY, does not exist.

You want evidence that God exists? The universe, and all that there is. It is common logic to know that such creations as planets, moons, suns, and galaxies are too complex to be created without a Creator.

What the hell are you talking about? That is not science, logic, but sheer stupidity. Just because YOU DONT UNDERSTAND how the Universe came about that does NOT mean we should throw our hands up in the air and say "God dun' it!"

And if everything that's complex requires a creator, then God's complexity alone requires a creator....

You want evidence that God exists? How could one God and his one Son convert a third of the world's population? You want evidence that God exists? The three major religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), who all worship the same God, were practiced and are practiced by the majority of the people who have inhabited and who currently inhabit the earth.

So it's a popularity contest? So if all Christians died tomorrow and the Hindu's happened to live, would it be logical to assume Krishna is the correct God?

And those 3 monotheist religions DO NOT worship the same God, that is a lie fabricated by the Muslims. You believe Jesus is God in human-form, the Muslims do not...therefore do not believe Jesus is God.

I, too, have questioned the existence of God, but there IS evidence.

Show me some, saying "it's too hard and complicated for me to understand" is not evidence, but ignorance...

So many people involved lol.

Dude....You know what?

Why bother. Like, for real.

Were here. Lets just live. Who cares how we got here or who made us.

i've sort of given up on this thread.


but i don't think berishman will. lmao.

I found Berishman's post that people were complaining about, I'm assuming it's this one:
There was PROOF that God cannot exist.

Which, I suggest to Berishman, just put "99.9999999% chance that God does not exist" as opposed "he most definitely does not exist"

However, I wonder if people would have jumped on you had you said:

There was PROOF that Santa Clause cannot exist.

Me thinks not :)

And those 3 monotheist religions DO NOT worship the same God, that is a lie fabricated by the Muslims. You believe Jesus is God in human-form, the Muslims do not...therefore do not believe Jesus is God.

We believe that Jesus is God and Man, not just God with a human facade. The Christians are the once-Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. We worship the same God as the Jews, who didn't accept Jesus as their Savior. However they still acknowledge Jesus' presence on Earth as a very highly-regarded prophet, as do the Muslims.

I have never said "God 100% does not exist" - you can not make an absolute statement like that. And yes, you can disprove creationism and still believe in God.

The reason I'm not on your side in this debate is because I hate the "You can't disprove God!" statement - it's sort of like someone going into a thread about basketball and stating the ball is orange. Everyone knows that, but it doesn't mean you can't debate it. You implied that debating it is futile, how so? Everything you debate must have a conclusion?

I haven't read all of Berishman's posts but I know, for myself, that the reason I debate against God isn't because I know 100%, it's because I go with what is most likely...and God, MOST LIKELY, does not exist.



What the hell are you talking about? That is not science, logic, but sheer stupidity. Just because YOU DONT UNDERSTAND how the Universe came about that does NOT mean we should throw our hands up in the air and say "God dun' it!"

And if everything that's complex requires a creator, then God's complexity alone requires a creator....



So it's a popularity contest? So if all Christians died tomorrow and the Hindu's happened to live, would it be logical to assume Krishna is the correct God?

And those 3 monotheist religions DO NOT worship the same God, that is a lie fabricated by the Muslims. You believe Jesus is God in human-form, the Muslims do not...therefore do not believe Jesus is God.



Show me some, saying "it's too hard and complicated for me to understand" is not evidence, but ignorance...

Razz, if someone did post evidence, you'd pass it off as coincidence. You've blinded yourself and hardened your heart. There is no hardcore physical evidence, as has been said 100 times. It's not like someone's snapped a picture of Jesus sitting on his throne playing video games or something. But nonetheless, I'll give evidence enough; what God has done, many things of which couldn't happen without God, but I can almost guarantee you'll pass it all off as coincidence, as you've done with every other miracle that has been posted as evidence.

http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/amazing/
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/true-stories-testimonies-of-jesus-christ
http://breadsite.org/topics.htm

There's just three. I'd post quite a few more, but I'm about to go to church, so if you want I'll post more later, or you can just go to dogpile and search "Christian Testimonies," whichever you'd prefer.

All those "miracles" are probably exaggerated beyond reason though.

Without any historical proof that those events happened, The Bible remains nothing more than a fairy tale.


As per usual, I'm not reading every post in a thread I'm late on. However, I have been told by teachers that there is more evidence for the bible being historically accurate (it cross checks with other historical events, etc.) than there is historical evidence for the existence of Alexander the Great.

Unfortunately, I don't know any credible and/or unbiased historians so I can't prove this either way. I'd like to look into it if I even knew where to start.

There's just three. I'd post quite a few more, but I'm about to go to church, so if you want I'll post more later, or you can just go to dogpile and search "Christian Testimonies," whichever you'd prefer.

The whole personal experience thing kind of falls apart at one point or another, at least if your trying to convince a stubborn atheist.

what God has done, many things of which couldn't happen without God

Again, while I am on your side and believe in God, that statement doesn't work either. If you claim God exists, always has existed, and always will exist, how do you know those things couldn't have happened without him? There's never been a chance to prove it b/c he has always been there (if Christians are correct).

We believe that Jesus is God and Man, not just God with a human facade. The Christians are the once-Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. We worship the same God as the Jews, who didn't accept Jesus as their Savior. However they still acknowledge Jesus' presence on Earth as a very highly-regarded prophet, as do the Muslims.

Thank God, someone who knows their sh*t enough to say that Jews and Muslims acknowledge the existence of Jesus, they just thought he was a prophet, not God Incarnate.

If humans are truly as complex as theist seem to think we are (which, in comparison with the rest of the universe, I don't think we are all that complex) Then we must have had something MORE complex to create us.


But surely, If complex things require a more complex designer, then the designer must require an even MORE complex designer.
This is known as an infinite regress.

Why do people never understand this argument? what makes god GOD is the fact that he IS the end of the regression, it would be infinite if there were no God.

I found Berishman's post that people were complaining about, I'm assuming it's this one:


Which, I suggest to Berishman, just put "99.9999999% chance that God does not exist" as opposed "he most definitely does not exist"

However, I wonder if people would have jumped on you had you said:



Me thinks not :)
Yeah, when I made that post however, fcgb was telling me that I don't have any proof that god *can not* (not *does not*) exist.

but yes, if that is where all of this trouble is coming from, let me state what I have stated a million times.. one more time.

I am NOT 100% sure that God is nonexistent, just as Christians are NOT 100% sure that he exists.
I AM, however, sure, that the evidence is not in favor of his existence.

Let it be noted that I have not read any other post made after Razz's on this page yet.
I'll get to replying to them as soon as I submit this reply.
:)
Merging doublepost
Razz, if someone did post evidence, you'd pass it off as coincidence. You've blinded yourself and hardened your heart. There is no hardcore physical evidence, as has been said 100 times. It's not like someone's snapped a picture of Jesus sitting on his throne playing video games or something. But nonetheless, I'll give evidence enough; what God has done, many things of which couldn't happen without God, but I can almost guarantee you'll pass it all off as coincidence, as you've done with every other miracle that has been posted as evidence.

http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/amazing/
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/true-stories-testimonies-of-jesus-christ
http://breadsite.org/topics.htm

There's just three. I'd post quite a few more, but I'm about to go to church, so if you want I'll post more later, or you can just go to dogpile and search "Christian Testimonies," whichever you'd prefer.
Testimonies are nothing.
I could just as easily show you a video of a "Santa Sighting" or a "i was abducted by aliens" testimony.

As for your links, you basically just linked me to the stories of the bible.
I could just as easily link you to http://www.aliensarereal.com

http://freehovind.com/

i think you should look into every religion closely before you say that "god isnt real". i guess id count myself as an agnostic, cause i cant prove there is no god, as i havnt looked into the religions, but i cant prove there is a god.

Why do people never understand this argument? what makes god GOD is the fact that he IS the end of the regression, it would be infinite if there were no God.
Because it is a horrible argument. First it starts off with no evidence backing then the argument goes like this:

A. If something is complex it must have a complex creator
B. We are complex
C. Therefore we must have a complex creator (God).

But then this logic never applies to God and why? "Because he is God" is the only answer and that answer also has no evidence backing it up.

So you start off with an argument with no evidential backing and end the argument with no evidential backing. Hell, even the middle of the argument not only has no evidential backing but to say we are complex is false when in comparison to the rest of the universe.

So it's not that we can't understand the argument but plainly the argument just kind of sucks.

http://freehovind.com/

Oh GOD.

Either that guy doesn't know what he is talking about..or he is ignoring every part of the theory of evolution that doesn't work in his favor.

The complexity argument does kind of suck...but I think it works (at least I hope I can make it sound reasonable). Just remember that doesn't argue towards certainty, just probability.

A. If something is complex it must have a complex creator
B. We are complex
C. Therefore we must have a complex creator (God).


For each part...
A. Evidence; everything that is complex has a higher creator. For instance a painting was created by a painter with skill/knowledge. I personally think it is more likely that we are the way we are (complex) as a result of design over random chance. but the argument falls apart if you don't believe that so, f*%k it, I don't even care....

The complexity argument does kind of suck...but I think it works (at least I hope I can make it sound reasonable). Just remember that doesn't argue towards certainty, just probability.



For each part...
A. Evidence; everything that is complex has a higher creator. For instance a painting was created by a painter with skill/knowledge. I personally think it is more likely that we are the way we are (complex) as a result of design over random chance. but the argument falls apart if you don't believe that so, f*%k it, I don't even care....

Yet for even the argument you make can turn on the Christians who argue it so much. I would say a building, car, boat, house, etc. are all more complex than a painting. Now these are all built by many builders not a single one so what is not to say that we don't have multiple creators according to this logic? Nothing.

As for the random chance who to say it all happened in one try at random. I remember someone (can't remember who) who made an analogy like this:

Say in a game of monopoly you have to roll a 2 with one die before you can move forward at all. You keep rolling until you get a 2 which is a 1/6 chance and eventually you move forward. Now you can think of that in the terms of the universe and the Big Bang on a larger scale. It could have been hundred, thousands, or millions of Big Bangs before it went right and we came to be here today.

The complexity argument does kind of suck...but I think it works (at least I hope I can make it sound reasonable). Just remember that doesn't argue towards certainty, just probability.



For each part...
A. Evidence; everything that is complex has a higher creator. For instance a painting was created by a painter with skill/knowledge. I personally think it is more likely that we are the way we are (complex) as a result of design over random chance. but the argument falls apart if you don't believe that so, f*%k it, I don't even care....

Evolutions isn't random chance. So many people are confused over this.

Just do some research on natural selection, and you'll realize that a painting really can make a painter.

*Not like that though.. lol*

The theory of evolution is what it is.....a theory. There is no way to prove it. There is proof in the history that Jesus existed. Look in a world history book...he's in there too. Charles Darwin admitted on his death bed that his theory wasn't supposed to be taken seriously but people jumped on the band wagon and wanted to make something of it anyway.

Charles Darwin admitted on his death bed that his theory wasn't supposed to be taken seriously but people jumped on the band wagon and wanted to make something of it anyway.

Do not EVEN disgrace him like that. He did NOT admit that on his death bed. Show me some links.
You can't.


And yeah, Evolution is a theory. It's one of the HIGHEST possible levels an idea can achieve. The Theory of Gravity is also a theory, but I don't see you jumping off of a bridge expecting to be able to fly.

I think you'd have to be pretty thick or far too stubborn in w/e religious views not to believe in Evolution. That or you just have a misinformed understanding of what it actually is. It makes perfect sense.

I think you'd have to be pretty thick or far too stubborn in w/e religious views not to believe in Evolution. That or you just have a misinformed understanding of what it actually is. It makes perfect sense.

I agree with you, but I thought you were the one that thought that complex things require an even more complex creator??

a painting really can make a painter.

That's actually a really good point, seeing humans came from less complex creatures.

I still can't comprehend or even imagine that all that surrounds us wasn't planned or created intelligently. I know that doesn't prove anything, just a gut feeling.

That's actually a really good point, seeing humans came from less complex creatures.

I still can't comprehend or even imagine that all that surrounds us wasn't planned or created intelligently. I know that doesn't prove anything, just a gut feeling.

Well.. I can honestly say I had that feeling before as well. After a lot of studying though.. it's absent.

I actually used to be on the other side of this argument, debating atheists...
I honestly can't believe how brainwashed I was.

And yeah, Evolution is a theory. It's one of the HIGHEST possible levels an idea can achieve. The Theory of Gravity is also a theory, but I don't see you jumping off of a bridge expecting to be able to fly.

Thank you! How many times does that have to be mentioned, right Alex? :icon_wink

It's pretty frustrating when the word "theory" is preceded by the words "just a." :icon_roll It really makes me wonder what science classes are teaching these days...or rather, how religion can make one misconstrue things.

I honestly can't believe how brainwashed I was.

I can honestly say that I don't feel forced to believe, or brainwashed into anything. No one is forcing me into the religion I am in, and if I really thought there were any huge flaws in it as it is today, I'd leave.

...but dude. You're only 15, and I'm only 18. I'd give yourself a little more time before you get so set in your ways that your brainwashed NOT to believe any religions, existence of a God, etc.

I can honestly say that I don't feel forced to believe, or brainwashed into anything. No one is forcing me into the religion I am in, and if I really thought there were any huge flaws in it as it is today, I'd leave.

...but dude. You're only 15, and I'm only 18. I'd give yourself a little more time before you get so set in your ways that your brainwashed NOT to believe any religions, existence of a God, etc.

I like to think I'm far more mature than an average 15 year old, but fair enough.
I didn't feel like I was forced to believe it. I NEVER felt like I was forced to believe it. It had been something I was taught, right along with math and English, there was religion.
Even with a class on it, I never felt like I was forced to believe it.. I believed it, mainly, I think, because my parents, best friends.. everyone believed it.
It's hard not to believe something when everyone you ever knew believed it.

^ typical, actually.

Once upon a time, a wise man named razz said something along the lines of this.

How often is it that you see a young "christian" boy who actually has his own opinion of anything surrounding him, or with ANY idea why he believes it. "son, why do you believe in God?" the boy replies with shining eyes "Because mommy and Daddy and Sally (6 yrs old) and Billy and the rest of our family and the whole whole whole church believes it! that's like.. 1/2 the people in the world!" "Oh," says the man, "so you don't know why you yourself believe in Jesus?" "Nope!" says the boy. "Do you have evidence?" "lyk3, y3z, t0ta11yz, th1s n0aH sToRY b00k lyk3, t0tallY t3llz t3h truThzoRz!" "see that picture of noah (in the littl