...because of people like this. It's a group from Ireland, apparently with an American presence, that goes around irritating people with their Biblical diatribes. They go on buses, to beaches, etc and try to belittle people for being human (ie: you've lied before? I guess that means you're a liar and therefore must repent!)

The thing that bothers me the most is the people they end up debating, they debate people who don't know how to defend themselves but think they do. They try to use clever (and overused) arguments from people like Einstein to try to prove their supernatural deity exist.

What amazed me the most was the lack of knowledge on behalf of the Atheists (or secularists, etc) they were debating. I mean, Einstein most definitely did not even believe in God. And in the Navy Seal video, watch as the response to one of the Atheists was "Oh, sir, you say there is no empirical evidence for God? Well, you can't disprove him now can ya?" and the Atheist actually walked away, looking like a jackass.

Part 1:
Yq2OisZEB9g

Part 2:
o7YVxzWGjzc

Part 3:
krFdDlfi6i8

Part 4:
1ZH8k5PypFg


Navy Seal Part 1:
dNcbtHs2M4E

Navy Seal Part 2:
1vqxJvR0Fzk

Sorry razz, but I can't watch any of those.

They honestly aggravate me to the point where I feel the need to go do the same thing in the streets, only opposite of course.



Einstein was a pantheist though, and I ALWAYS hear that argument made, *"oh.. but lyke, einstein said:*"

^yup, here are some Einstein quotes for proof:

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

alot of people go pushy haha, but religon can be a good thing

like ghandi said(and i believe)

all religon is the same, religon something thats supposed to bring out compassioan, sympathy, effort, and other values

somewhere along the line that gets messed up

alot of people go pushy haha, but religon can be a good thing

like ghandi said(and i believe)

all religon is the same, religon something thats supposed to bring out compassioan, sympathy, effort, and other values

somewhere along the line that gets messed up

Yeah, just like communism. It's actually a good idea, but it NEVER turns out well.

People are perfectly capable of being compassionate, sympathetic, and have all of these other values.. BY THEMSELVES.

Needing a god to provide you with the ability to be compassionate is saying that you're incompetent yourself.

And that just ISN'T true.

i dont see how doing a good deed to make up for a crime is'nt as good as saying your sorry.

Yeah, just like communism. It's actually a good idea, but it NEVER turns out well.

People are perfectly capable of being compassionate, sympathetic, and have all of these other values.. BY THEMSELVES.

Needing a god to provide you with the ability to be compassionate is saying that you're incompetent yourself.

And that just ISN'T true.

it doesn't nessisarly have to involve god(like budhism, hinduism)

and it helps too, looks at lets say people involved in bands, they get into drugs and hit rock bottom, find religon and get back on their feet
Merging doublepost
i dont wanna get people pissed at me or anything sorry hahah :)

it doesn't nessisarly have to involve god(like budhism, hinduism)

and it helps too, looks at lets say people involved in bands, they get into drugs and hit rock bottom, find religon and get back on their feet
Merging doublepost
i dont wanna get people pissed at me or anything sorry hahah :)

im sure i heard this somewhere, but, why do people always find religion when they're at their lowest. like, an atheist whe just made a million dollars never just "finds" religion. but a druggie bankrupt guitar player sure doesnt have any trouble. i think tey just use "jesus" for motivation, i dont think he's really helping them at all.

^Yeah, its nothing more than a psychological "go-to" tool.

As I used before in an earlier example, this rock star could have prayed to a ROCK and got the same effect he would have gotten from praying to "JESUS"
It's purely mental.

im sure i heard this somewhere, but, why do people always find religion when they're at their lowest. like, an atheist whe just made a million dollars never just "finds" religion. but a druggie bankrupt guitar player sure doesnt have any trouble. i think tey just use "jesus" for motivation, i dont think he's really helping them at all.
I believe John Lennon summed that up best in his song "God." "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."

Pretty self explanatory, people have their greatest faith in God in their most painful times in life because that is their hope of that something better can come and help them.

Reminds me of my old school (which was not a Christian school, mind you) where we had to recite the Lord's Prayer every ****ing morning. I usually just walked out into the hall, but one day my teacher asked me why I did. The following conversation went as such;

"Why do you always go out into the hall during the prayer?"

"I don't believe in God."

"Why not?"

"I just don't."

"You should believe in God"

"What?"

"You should believe in God"

"Says who"

"The word of God"

"You're a dumb *****."

I got sent to the office :)

Razz, I'm sure those guys only post the videos of the arguments that went in their favor--not the ones in which they got owned. These "ah-ha, gotcha" moments in well-rehearsed speeches are pathetic excuses for proof.

^Yeah, its nothing more than a psychological "go-to" tool.

As I used before in an earlier example, this rock star could have prayed to a ROCK and got the same effect he would have gotten from praying to "JESUS"
It's purely mental.

I disagree. Completely. God blesses those who seek him diligently. He blesses my hands (and feet, haha woot), and has cleaned my mind up immensely over the course of a few months. For real tho, try it for yourself. It's not religion. Don't seek a church or a pastor or any religion filled with useless superstition. Just seek the Lord, Jesus Christ. Don't need to clean up your life before you come to him, don't need to feel like you're too full of sin to get to God. HE TAKE YOU AS YOU ARE MANG! He'll take you in, and change you, if you got genuine faith, I promise it will happen.

I've prayed something before, and my father spoke the same words to me.. confirming that my prayer was answered, only days after.

I expect the majority to flame me for these words, rebuke me, and call me a liar. It's quite the honor to suffer in Jesus' name tho, so do your thing, if it's flame, or if it's taking a real look at life and seeing that there's more to this world then first appears.

HE TAKE YOU AS YOU ARE MANG!
No flaming. I would just like to point out I am not a mang but a man.

I disagree. Completely. God blesses those who seek him diligently. He blesses my hands (and feet, haha woot), and has cleaned my mind up immensely over the course of a few months. For real tho, try it for yourself. It's not religion. Don't seek a church or a pastor or any religion filled with useless superstition. Just seek the Lord, Jesus Christ. Don't need to clean up your life before you come to him, don't need to feel like you're too full of sin to get to God. HE TAKE YOU AS YOU ARE MANG! He'll take you in, and change you, if you got genuine faith, I promise it will happen.

I've prayed something before, and my father spoke the same words to me.. confirming that my prayer was answered, only days after.

I expect the majority to flame me for these words, rebuke me, and call me a liar. It's quite the honor to suffer in Jesus' name tho, so do your thing, if it's flame, or if it's taking a real look at life and seeing that there's more to this world then first appears.Way to judge.

You seem to think that "atheist" is a synonym for "sinner"
I can assure you that, by the Ten Commandment's standards, I haven't sinned SINCE I BECAME AN ATHEIST.
Let me ask you this:

Can God punish me for being incapable of believing in him?



Furthermore, as I've stated, I WAS a Christian, for years. I HONESTLY believed there was a God, and at some points I was deluded enough to believe that my prayer's were being answered. Too brainwashed to realize that I was the one solving my problems. Not some invisible man living in the sky.


As I've said before: According to the Bible, GOD IS INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING PRAYER.

Way to judge.

You seem to think that "atheist" is a synonym for "sinner"
I can assure you that, by the Ten Commandment's standards, I haven't sinned SINCE I BECAME AN ATHEIST.
Let me ask you this:

Can God punish me for being incapable of believing in him?



Furthermore, as I've stated, I WAS a Christian, for years. I HONESTLY believed there was a God, and at some points I was deluded enough to believe that my prayer's were being answered. Too brainwashed to realize that I was the one solving my problems. Not some invisible man living in the sky.


As I've said before: According to the Bible, GOD IS INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING PRAYER.

that is, I believe to be the unforgivable blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. To deny the blessings that were given unto you. You say you were a Christian, I say you were never one. How can one meet God, and know him, and then turn away and say you never knew him? You can't. You never knew God. Stop playing yourself.

and yes, this has been said many times. we are all sinners. you included. remember, God says pride is an ABOMINATION to him. He will reject those who are prideful. Good freaking luck bro, God knows you need more then that to get some life in your dead carcass.

you guys are so willfully ignorant it makes me completely dumbfounded. remember, you alone are going to stand before GOD the creator of the universe and you, and you will be judged according to your words, thoughts, actions, and motives.

you guys are so willfully ignorant it makes me completely dumbfounded.

This is hilarious

Way to judge.

You seem to think that "atheist" is a synonym for "sinner"
I can assure you that, by the Ten Commandment's standards, I haven't sinned SINCE I BECAME AN ATHEIST.
Let me ask you this:

Can God punish me for being incapable of believing in him?



Furthermore, as I've stated, I WAS a Christian, for years. I HONESTLY believed there was a God, and at some points I was deluded enough to believe that my prayer's were being answered. Too brainwashed to realize that I was the one solving my problems. Not some invisible man living in the sky.


As I've said before: According to the Bible, GOD IS INCAPABLE OF ANSWERING PRAYER.

We are all sinners

This is hilarious
Quite hilarious.

Razz, why do you search for christian stuff all the time. Anyone would think you're trying to convince yourself they're wrong, like when gay guys act macho because they dont want to come out the closet ;)
There are plenty of atheists who dont know crap about evolution. Why dont you teach them, it'd be much easier

We are all sinners

Yes, we are all sinners, but it's as if =z28= is trying to make "atheist" synonymous with "satan"


=z28=, I'll say it again, I WAS ONE OF THE MOST HARDCORE CHRISTIANS EVER.

I could send you links to message boards where I was making the same pathetic arguments you are making.


I am now, having a better understanding of the Universe, INCAPABLE of needing a supernatural deity to explain it all.
I could no longer FORCE myself to believe in God. If I did, I would be lying to myself, and ultimately, God, and surely God wouldn't fall for that.

Razz, why do you search for christian stuff all the time. Anyone would think you're trying to convince yourself they're wrong, like when gay guys act macho because they dont want to come out the closet ;)
There are plenty of atheists who dont know crap about evolution. Why dont you teach them, it'd be much easier

Why does MADD search for drunk drivers all the time? Why does PETA investigate slaughter houses? Why do journalists question politicians?

Because it effects their lives, that's why

Why does MADD search for drunk drivers all the time? Why does PETA investigate slaughter houses? Why do journalists question politicians?

Because it effects their lives, that's why

And we're trying to affect your life in a positive way.

And we're trying to affect your life in a positive way.

By trying to convert me to your perverted way of thinking? To convert me to a religion that promotes slavery and degrades women?

You are trying to help me? It amazes me how even the children, like yourself, are brainwashed into thinking they have all the answers and try to get adults to convert.

By trying to convert me to your perverted way of thinking? To convert me to a religion that promotes slavery and degrades women?

You are trying to help me? It amazes me how even the children, like yourself, are brainwashed into thinking they have all the answers and try to get adults to convert.

razz, i dont think you are being persecuted for being atheist. there are some terrible things going on in the world but i dont think annoying christians should be a big restriction to the enjoyment of your life.
And i know christian wives who would argue that they're not being treated like crap, but are actually very happy. But i dont know any christians who have slaves.
And really, in the end your doing something very similar to christians, you're telling people that their beliefs are wrong.
Can i ask you personally, how much time do you consume putting down christianity and worrying about correcting them? Does it play on your mind for a large part of the day? because that cant be healthy. Because you can never be satisfied. you might singel handedly bring down christianity but them you'll have jews, muslims, budists...

razz, i dont think you are being persecuted for being atheist. there are some terrible things going on in the world but i dont think annoying christians should be a big restriction to the enjoyment of your life.
And i know christian wives who would argue that they're not being treated like crap, but are actually very happy. But i dont know any christians who have slaves.
And really, in the end your doing something very similar to christians, you're telling people that their beliefs are wrong.
Can i ask you personally, how much time do you consume putting down christianity and worrying about correcting them? Does it play on your mind for a large part of the day? because that cant be healthy. Because you can never be satisfied. you might singel handedly bring down christianity but them you'll have jews, muslims, budists...

I debate them because I hate their certitude, I hate how they fool people into giving their money to make rich white snake-oil men rich, I hate how they're controlling politics, I hate the fact that 150/400 white house employees are graduates from Pat Robertson's Regent University.

I hate how they're trying to make creationism a science, I hate how they don't want homosexuals to have rights, I hate how they protest video games and plays (such as Jerry Springers Opera).

I hate how they fly planes into buildings, I hate how they blow themselves up in restaurants, I hate how tyrants spend half their time proselytizing children and degrading women. I hate how they're always behind our most atrocious wars.

And I hate being the person who sits back and pretends it's not damaging.

...that's why!

I debate them because I hate their certitude, I hate how they fool people into giving their money to make rich white snake-oil men rich, I hate how they're controlling politics, I hate the fact that 150/400 white house employees are graduates from Pat Robertson's Regent University.

I hate how they're trying to make creationism a science, I hate how they don't want homosexuals to have rights, I hate how they protest video games and plays (such as Jerry Springers Opera).

I hate how they fly planes into buildings, I hate how they blow themselves up in restaurants, I hate how tyrants spend half their time proselytizing children and degrading women. I hate how they're always behind our most atrocious wars.

And I hate being the person who sits back and pretends it's not damaging.

...that's why!

Christians do not fly planes into buildings...that is the muslim terrorists who have been brainwashed to believe that their god allah wants them to do this and their reward will be heaven. C'mon...this is a very serious subject and don't talk on it if you don't know what you're talking about....many people have died because of this and yes....that includes Christians. Why would we kill our own anyhow.

And good Christian men treat their wives/girlfriends with respect.

Eph. 5:25-28 For husbands, this means love your wives just as Christ loves the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God's word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. In the same husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife, actually loves himself.

Christians do not fly planes into buildings...that is the muslim terrorists who have been brainwashed to believe that their god allah wants them to do this and their reward will be heaven. C'mon...this is a very serious subject and don't talk on it if you don't know what you're talking about....many people have died because of this and yes....that includes Christians. Why would we kill our own anyhow.

And good Christian men treat their wives/girlfriends with respect.

Eph. 5:25-28 For husbands, this means love your wives just as Christ loves the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God's word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. In the same husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife, actually loves himself.Razz knows what he is talking about.

If you just examine what you wrote, you realize that you THINK that their (Muslim) religion is wrong, and that they have been brainwashed.


Hold up.


You think that Muslims have been brainwashed and you haven't?

That sounds like brainwashing to me.

Yeah, its a given, The people that flew the planes into the towers were NOT Christian..

but let's think back a second..

Holocaust anyone?



You think that by spreading the word of Jesus you are gaining entrance to Heaven or whatever.. you're just as brainwashed as Muslims.
and DON'T deny it.

Christians do not fly planes into buildings...that is the muslim terrorists who have been brainwashed to believe that their god allah wants them to do this and their reward will be heaven. C'mon...this is a very serious subject and don't talk on it if you don't know what you're talking about....many people have died because of this and yes....that includes Christians. Why would we kill our own anyhow.

Would you fly planes into buildings if your God asked you to?

Also, was Joshua right in killing the Goyean because they worshiped another God?

And good Christian men treat their wives/girlfriends with respect.

Eph. 5:25-28 For husbands, this means love your wives just as Christ loves the church. He gave up his life for her to make her holy and clean, washed by the cleansing of God's word. He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault. In the same husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife, actually loves himself.

It also says:

1 Cor. 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Cor. 11:7-8
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

Christians do not fly planes into buildings...that is the muslim terrorists who have been brainwashed to believe that their god allah wants them to do this and their reward will be heaven. C'mon...this is a very serious subject and don't talk on it if you don't know what you're talking about....many people have died because of this and yes....that includes Christians. Why would we kill our own anyhow.



But don't you see, christians also do things like this. Maybe not to the extreme of the terrorists have because of their religion. But each religion has their own things that they do and from religion to religion they all think they are stupid and as you admitted brainwashed. They think this of everyother religion except their own. I bet you a million dollars those muslims think that you are brainwashed. Try and not only look at what you do and what you believe in. You have to learn of other religions and beliefes before you can be 100% sure on what you are actually following.

thats one amazing man right there. i hope to be doing the same thing when im older and know more about the bible and can explain it better. street preaching is awesome.

razz, you're debating Christianity which is A religion, but you're definetly not debating all religion in general...you gotta remember there are more religions than just christianity!!

^So you think that if you changed out all the Christians in this forum with Muslims and those videos were people who follow Islam razz wouldn't be debating? I think he would still debate regardless.

If you go against something as broad as religion, the religion with the majority of people is most likely the one who will fight back hence why most of the debates are over Christianity.

I debate them because I hate their certitude, I hate how they fool people into giving their money to make rich white snake-oil men rich, I hate how they're controlling politics, I hate the fact that 150/400 white house employees are graduates from Pat Robertson's Regent University.

I hate how they're trying to make creationism a science, I hate how they don't want homosexuals to have rights, I hate how they protest video games and plays (such as Jerry Springers Opera).

I hate how they fly planes into buildings, I hate how they blow themselves up in restaurants, I hate how tyrants spend half their time proselytizing children and degrading women. I hate how they're always behind our most atrocious wars.

And I hate being the person who sits back and pretends it's not damaging.

...that's why!

i understand. But all those things you described happen on a much broader range than christianity
I hate how they fool people into giving their money
Everyone wants our money. there is internet fraud, dodgy car salesmen and so on. But I dont give em a dime. Anyone smart enough shouldnt. But that doesnt stop millions of people being tricked daily.
I hate how they're controlling politics
If christians who push their own agenda weren't controlling politics i'm sure there'd be a bunch of non christian who push their own agenda to take their place. Politicians are politicians. Dont vote them in if you dont like them. thats all you can do. If millions of people want them, then who are we to say they cant have them.
I hate how they're trying to make creationism a science
Is it a science? No. then you have nothing to worry about. There's probably a bunch of people who try to get the occult, scientific status. Sure they might be annoying, but we'll live.
I hate how they don't want homosexuals to have rights
homosexuals have been hated for a long time in western cultures. Gay bashings still take place by non christians. however since christians have organisations they are able to be more organized and vocal about it.
But even some churches are even accepting gays.
If you look at the way gays are treated now as opposed to 50 years ago, there's a gig difference in rights.
There'll alway be people who dislike gays, but the fact is we're almost at the stage where gays can marry now. Only a matter of time and i think it's close.
I hate how they protest video games and plays (such as Jerry Springers Opera)
yeah but do they bann them? They have a right to free speech, and we have a right to ignore. Feminist do the same thing. They try to ban everything that is degrading to women. But you'll find by looking around, they have little effect. Let em speak.

I hate how they fly planes into buildings
yeah lol, that's pretty annoying. we should probably do something about that
I hate how tyrants spend half their time proselytizing children and degrading women
look at the media world. thats what i call proselytizing children and degrading women on a scale equal to christianity.

All i'm saying razz, is that I think you spend too much time thinking about christians. I dont know whether it's because you were abused by christians or just feel they are a neat and easy target because they can be quantified and summed up as a whole. But when i look at all those things you said you hate, i struggle to think of any christian i know who does all, or any of those things.
I guess you might call them moderate christians, and there are millions of them. But i can imagine all those things you said summing up "the man". whether he be a high priest or a business man. a little power corrupts.......so on.
Antway i dont really want to defend anybody particularly, but i just hope you're not making yourself miserable with what seems to me to be an obsession with christians

i understand. But all those things you described happen on a much broader range than christianity
That's why the name of this thread is "This Is Why I Debate Religion..."

Everyone wants our money. there is internet fraud, dodgy car salesmen and so on. But I dont give em a dime. Anyone smart enough shouldnt. But that doesnt stop millions of people being tricked daily.
You forgot the Churches' collection box in there, the tax grants religions get, etc. The way I see it, if God wanted them to have that money he would have made a way for them to get it so that they didn't have to take from other people.

If christians who push their own agenda weren't controlling politics i'm sure there'd be a bunch of non christian who push their own agenda to take their place. Politicians are politicians. Dont vote them in if you dont like them. thats all you can do. If millions of people want them, then who are we to say they cant have them.

Or just maybe you'd have a decent politician who would be interested in doing what they think is best for the people and not having their to priorities be keeping gay marriage illegal, banning abortion, keeping anyone who is not Christian from running ...

yeah but do they bann them? They have a right to free speech, and we have a right to ignore. Feminist do the same thing. They try to ban everything that is degrading to women. But you'll find by looking around, they have little effect. Let em speak.
So we should respect their right to freedom of speech when they don't do the same to others? Also would you be in favor of Christians marching around with signs with pictures of dead fetuses just to protest a Planned Parenting clinic?

look at the media world. thats what i call proselytizing children and degrading women on a scale equal to christianity.
So it is alright if someone else does it just as equally bad?

you completely missed the point bbengyak. I think it's cause you're angry.

I think you've decided that i'm justifying what bad christians do because atheist do the same things
So we should respect their right to freedom of speech
so you're all for freedom of speech unless you disagree with what their saying?
freedom of speech means we have to put up with some stupid crap.
Sometimes i'm outraged by what people say, but that doesnt mean i want to ban them or lock them up.
Anyway I'm defending myself, and i shouldnt have to. I'm not a complete idiot, bbengyak and neither are you, so when reading my post, dont try to see at as me against you or us against them and i think you'll better understand what i'm trying to convey.

BTW what the hell is a decent politician ?? ;) lol

One of the greatest things about living in a free country is everyone has the right to voice his or her opinion, no matter how stupid. Freedom of speech. I have nothing against these Christians doing what they are doing. To ban them would go against sacred American values.

I'd love for them to approach me, they'd be in for a world of embarrassment.

It's these christians that make me mad. lmfao this video is hilarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEQuW2v6U2o
dEQuW2v6U2o

you completely missed the point bbengyak. I think it's cause you're angry.

I think you've decided that i'm justifying what bad christians do because atheist do the same things

so you're all for freedom of speech unless you disagree with what their saying?
freedom of speech means we have to put up with some stupid crap.
Sometimes i'm outraged by what people say, but that doesnt mean i want to ban them or lock them up.
Anyway I'm defending myself, and i shouldnt have to. I'm not a complete idiot, bbengyak and neither are you, so when reading my post, dont try to see at as me against you or us against them and i think you'll better understand what i'm trying to convey.


BTW what the hell is a ?? ;) lol

No I'm not mad or think your justifying what "bad" Christians do I just thought your post was somewhat idiotic.

No, I'm for everyone having freedom of speech, I said "respect" not "ban" their freedom of speech. It's just when one group of people are jackas*** about their right to freedom of speech you should sit there and let them be jackas***. If white supremacist started preaching their beliefs in your neighborhood would you just sit there and sit complacently?

First you tried to point out that many people try to cheat others out of their money but failed to mention that the Church is probably one of the biggest conspirators at it.

Then what I got from you was an attempt to imply that without Christian politicians we'd just have worse politicians, something you have no evidence to back up which is idiotic to do.

You didn't answer my question about whether or not you would like Christians against abortion march around with pictures of dead fetuses where you live. Would you like that? Or how about signs with "God Hates Fag"?

Again you didn't answer the last question to my last post.

look at the media world. thats what i call proselytizing children and degrading women on a scale equal to christianity.

Again so it is alright if someone else does it just as equally bad?

I think you've decided that i'm justifying what bad christians do because atheist do the same things

Oh, and where are these situations where atheists try to justify what bad atheist have done?

"Fags are worthy of death, that's the standard of God"


"This is the truth"


"Fecies eating beasts, he's coming to kick your ass!"


"God HATES YOUUUUUU!!"






Someone is going to massacre them someday.
You can't just insult someone else's lifestyle like that.

All i'm saying razz, is that I think you spend too much time thinking about christians. I dont know whether it's because you were abused by christians or just feel they are a neat and easy target because they can be quantified and summed up as a whole. But when i look at all those things you said you hate, i struggle to think of any christian i know who does all, or any of those things.
I guess you might call them moderate christians, and there are millions of them. But i can imagine all those things you said summing up "the man". whether he be a high priest or a business man. a little power corrupts.......so on.
Antway i dont really want to defend anybody particularly, but i just hope you're not making yourself miserable with what seems to me to be an obsession with christians
you completely missed the point bbengyak. I think it's cause you're angry.


Why do you assume we're angry? Why do people frown at debate? If something made me angry I wouldn't waste my time debating it, I'm extraordinarily happy with my life, I wouldn't need fairy-tale believers to take that from me :)

And I know everything about 'moderate vs fundamentalist' Christian. Moderate Christians are the ones who can't name the 10 commandments, attend Church once a year, don't care what other people worship, use Christmas as a means of giving & receiving gifts, and have never read the Bible...

The ones I can't stand are the ones controlling politics, protest against other peoples rights on the street, assume others are lost, etc etc. Now, you say you don't know many Christians like that - but, since when did I care who you know?

Forgive me if I ever did...

I know the rights of the common people are > than the feelings of Theists.

I dont know whether it's because you were abused by christians or just feel they are a neat and easy target because they can be quantified and summed up as a whole. s

Look, he was sexually harassed by a fat priest for a year when he was a choir boy. The physical scars are heeling but he's mentally scarred for life.


poor razz <3

If white supremacist started preaching their beliefs in your neighborhood would you just sit there and sit complacently?
i'd probably exercise my freedom off speech and tell them to get lost. your point?

First you tried to point out that many people try to cheat others out of their money but failed to mention that the Church is probably one of the biggest conspirators at it.
I mentioned two groups, dodgy cars salesmen and internet fraud. they are hardly the biggest conspirators either and it was hard a comprehensive list of scammers. So you're angry i left christians off my massive list of two things. what is your point?

Then what I got from you was an attempt to imply that without Christian politicians we'd just have worse politicians, something you have no evidence to back up which is idiotic to do.

how did i imply we'd be worse off? i said if we didnt have dishonest christians politians pushing their own agenda we'd just have dishonest non christian politicians pushing their own agenda.
So i dont think it's fair that you imply that i'm an idiot for something i never said and never implied.

You didn't answer my question about whether or not you would like Christians against abortion march around with pictures of dead fetuses where you live. Would you like that? Or how about signs with "God Hates Fag"?

Again so it is alright if someone else does it just as equally bad?
so you really do think i'm a complete idiot. It's absolutely ridiculous that you would ask me that.
Merging doublepost
Why do you assume we're angry?

We? are their teams on this forum?

The ones I can't stand are the ones controlling politics, protest against other peoples rights on the street, assume others are lost, etc etc. Now, you say you don't know many Christians like that - but, since when did I care who you know?
I care who i know. I'm not going to generalize a bunch of people as money hungry sexist extremists when none of the people i know act like that.
And if you personally know they kind of people you described, i feel sorry for you. You should come and live over my way.


I know the rights of the common people are > than the feelings of Theists.
depends if the common people are theists. And where i live the only right we dont have (that i can think of) is gay marriage (we're working on it). My president is a so called christian, but i dont think we are being withheld of our rights. in fact i feel very free do do what i want.
I dont know what your country is like, but maybe we're coming from very different background where you have come to resent whereas i reaslly dont have too much to complain about.

i'd probably exercise my freedom off speech and tell them to get lost. your point?
Yet you told us to "just ignore" Christians who use their freedom of speech to say things that offend/annoy us. Why is it different for the Christians?

I mentioned two groups, dodgy cars salesmen and internet fraud. they are hardly the biggest conspirators either and it was hard a comprehensive list of scammers. So you're angry i left christians off my massive list of two things. what is your point?
Because one of the reasons razz said he debates religion is because they fool people into giving them money, your response was tons of people do that. What's your point? Because other people do it, it's alright for Christianity to do it?

how did i imply we'd be worse off? i said if we didnt have dishonest christians politians pushing their own agenda we'd just have dishonest non christian politicians pushing their own agenda.
So i dont think it's fair that you imply that i'm an idiot for something i never said and never implied.
On a second look, you didn't really imply, I apologize for that statement.

so you really do think i'm a complete idiot. It's absolutely ridiculous that you would ask me that.
Is it really? The first question? Maybe.

The second, lets look at the scenario again:

I hate how tyrants spend half their time proselytizing children and degrading women

look at the media world. thats what i call proselytizing children and degrading women on a scale equal to christianity.

What other point could you be making? razz made a statement about religion, you said the media does the same as equally as bad. What were you trying to imply in that statement?

We? are their teams on this forum?

I suggest you learn how to read, I was talking about the generalizations you made of me and bbengyak

I care who i know. I'm not going to generalize a bunch of people as money hungry sexist extremists when none of the people i know act like that.
And if you personally know they kind of people you described, i feel sorry for you. You should come and live over my way.

So your suggestion is to avoid them and go to myself, worry about my own life, to hell with the rights they're stealing away from other people?

No thanks, I have a brain as well as a responsibility and I intend to use them

depends if the common people are theists. And where i live the only right we dont have (that i can think of) is gay marriage (we're working on it). My president is a so called christian, but i dont think we are being withheld of our rights. in fact i feel very free do do what i want.
I dont know what your country is like, but maybe we're coming from very different background where you have come to resent whereas i reaslly dont have too much to complain about.

That's correct, the reason you don't complain about anything is because you're segregated within your own reality, you don't worry about politics, foreign policy, etc.

Take an African-American in the 1960's for example. They could've told people like Dr. King things like "Hey Martin, why waste your time on dem' white folks? Why not come live where I live, it's a utopia for black people, cmon over and stop bein' angry!"

MLK decided fighting the corrupt system was the best thing to do and as a result his predecessors have the rights that people like you take for granted.

Believe me, I don't revolve my life around this one particular forum, I debate on at least 8-9 forums regularly and the reason is because in the real world most of the arguments I see come my way would not be surprising, and I give credit to the time "wasted" on places like these.

suggest you learn how to read, I was talking about the generalizations you made of me and bbengyak
what generalization? i felt that bbengyak was getting edgy. not you or anyone else.

So your suggestion is to avoid them and go to myself, worry about my own life, to hell with the rights they're stealing away from other people?

No thanks, I have a brain as well as a responsibility and I intend to use them
I suggest you do what you want. From my perspective, if my rights (or others) were restricted in this country to a point where i felt miserable, I wouldnt have the intelligence or power to change anything beyond my friends and family. So i would probably leave the country. I think it's great we have fighters and people who stand up and change things, but i just want to play guitar and skate and be a good person. I'm not a fighter. And if i was a fighter i dont think it would be too productive scouring 9 forums, searching youtube for christian videos and looking for minority groups to debate. That would just make me bitter.
I was joking when i said to come and live here. I just doubt that your political system is as terrible as you suggest. It might not be perfect, but i doubt it is evil either.
If you think you can improve it, go for it. But i dont consider myself a bad person for just accepting my reality without trying to change the world.

and just out of curiosity, let's say i'm a christian. what do you want me to do? how do you want me to change. what thoughts and actions of mine will make you consider that you have had an victory in changing me?
I'm talking about you're ideal goal.

LOL @ think we're miserable..."omg they're debating they must be miserable!"

I suggest you do what you want. From my perspective, if my rights (or others) were restricted in this country to a point where i felt miserable, I wouldnt have the intelligence or power to change anything beyond my friends and family. So i would probably leave the country.

That's great! Why would you feel miserable living off mommy & daddy?

Try being one of those people who has 3 kids with no health care, or a father of 6 who just lost his job because a company went overseas. Of course, you didn't believe I thought these things affected you, did you?

Why would you care? You'll only care when and if it affects you....

I guess that's the difference between you and me

I'm not a fighter. And if i was a fighter i dont think it would be too productive scouring 9 forums, searching youtube for christian videos and looking for minority groups to debate. That would just make me bitter.
I was joking when i said to come and live here. I just doubt that your political system is as terrible as you suggest. It might not be perfect, but i doubt it is evil either.

Looking for minority groups to debate? Christianity is a minority group? Really? Since when?

Are you really that dunce to believe we go after religion for the fun of it? Why don't you open your eyes, tell me, what do you know about the political system? What do you know about foreign policy or what's happening around the world?

What? What's that? Oh, you don't care...that's nice, I didn't expect children to care...that's why the adults handle that job...

so the children like you can say "I Juz wonno sk4t3 omg!"

and just out of curiosity, let's say i'm a christian. what do you want me to do? how do you want me to change. what thoughts and actions of mine will make you consider that you have had an victory in changing me?
I'm talking about you're ideal goal.

LOL

Again, the problem here is you think too small, too narrow, and assume that it's all about you and that we're here to change your minds...

Do you honestly think we're that desperate? Do you think we're trying to share the "gospel of Atheism" - of course not. I don't want you (or better yet, need you) to change.

The only thing I ask of you is give me your best reasons for believing in a deity so once I'm out in the real world I can put the arguments (for & against) to use.

Until then, go skate while we live our missseraaberl liiiives! because debating other opinions is soooo stupid!!!!

you got me wrong razz. i do care about people. I love people.
Maybe i dont know about politics and foreign policy as much as you and maybe there are atrocities that are going on in the world that i have no idea about. That doesnt mean i dont care about human suffering. I guess i could dedicate my life to trying to change one thing. We all could. But how many of us do?
And i dont understand what you couldnt tell me what to do? I may only be one individual but the world is made of individuals. What do you want each of these individuals to do, starting with me.

Until then, go skate
best advice you've given me ;D

you got me wrong razz. i do care about people. I love people.
Maybe i dont know about politics and foreign policy as much as you and maybe there are atrocities that are going on in the world that i have no idea about. That doesnt mean i dont care about human suffering.

If you cared, then why did you ask me if I cared? I may come off as an @ss to people here but only to the ones who think their beliefs == truth.

I guess i could dedicate my life to trying to change one thing. We all could. But how many of us do?

Who said one thing? And why do you have to dedicate your life? That's like saying "I refuse to have children because I wouldn't want to dedicate my life to them" - that isn't the case.

And i dont understand what you couldnt tell me what to do? I may only be one individual but the world is made of individuals. What do you want each of these individuals to do, starting with me.

If you say so:

- Start donating to charities, instead of buying your next skateboard, buy a crappier one and donate $10 to charity. I work part time and don't make a lot of money, but I always donate to charities because my life is greater than most people who, by georgraphy, live a ****ty life.

- Each time you hear someone tell you their God is right, challenge them on it, why? Well, they're trying to tell you they know something they dont. Imagine if the 9/11 hijackers were challenged as children and gave up their faith. Just imagine...

- If someone says they want creationism in schools, you fight it. Why? Well, why do you teach a belief in schools anyway? Why not teach things with evidence behind them? Creationism, if let into school, could confuse impressionable children who want to learn real science. Imagine if someone had said "Biblical math, which states 1 + 1 =50, should be taught in schools" - would you defend that?

What if the KKK or Nazi supporters wanted to bring in their stuff to the classroom, do you let them?

- etc etc

If you cared, then why did you ask me if I cared? I may come off as an @ss to people here but only to the ones who think their beliefs == truth.
I asked that? must have been a mistake. I know why you care. I think you believe your way of life is threatened and your/others rights might slip away if you stay quiet.
I think my thoughts were more along the lines of, why well up with resentment for christian greed when you you can just hate greed regardless of race, beliefs or status.
I think part of the answer might be that christians put on a self righteous persona where as big business doesnt so much. I guess that adds a sting to their greed, that they actually think it's divinely acceptable.


- Start donating to charities, instead of buying your next skateboard, buy a crappier one and donate $10 to charity. I work part time and don't make a lot of money, but I always donate to charities because my life is greater than most people who, by georgraphy, live a ****ty life.
thats good advise. I do that. but i could do more. My last donation was $25 to peta, then i did some reading and realized they were a bit physco. lol, might go world vision next time. But i better read up before i do, just in case.

- Each time you hear someone tell you their God is right, challenge them on it, why? Well, they're trying to tell you they know something they dont. Imagine if the 9/11 hijackers were challenged as children and gave up their faith. Just imagine...
If i find them rude and insulting i will.
Allot of people have different ideas on life and religion . I'm happy to listen to them but only if they are open to what i have to say aswell.
I know a guy who's idea is to spend as little money in life as possible. And his family suffer as a result.
It's a touchy subject, but i try to reason with people whom i disagree with. I think most people do. I have no specific group of people i wish to fight though because where i live most people are fairly easy going. Not too many extremists.

If someone says they want creationism in schools, you fight it. Why? Well, why do you teach a belief in schools anyway? Why not teach things with evidence behind them? Creationism, if let into school, could confuse impressionable children who want to learn real science. Imagine if someone had said "Biblical math, which states 1 + 1 =50, should be taught in schools" - would you defend that?
people do fight it. I dont think they'll ever teach it at schools, so i dont see that as a major issue. I think there should be a religious class though. We have to live with allot of different religions so i think it's important to know a little about each one. Otherwise we'd think that muslims are terrorist from what we hear in the media.
As long as we teach kids the fact and not what to think. but thats opens a whole other can of worms on which facts to present.

And still, i think you're 3 requirements come down to freedom. Everybody has to decide for themselfs how to live and what they think is right. the freedom i dont agree with is the freedom to brainwash kids. but we also have the freedom to unbrainwash them and so begins the never ending battle of the free (who believe they are right) against the free (who believe they are right)

I disagree. Completely. God blesses those who seek him diligently.


Yeah to get blessed by God you need to run around a chair 5 times with 1 hand on chest and other hand up in the air screaming so help me God!

How 'bout this: IF there is a God, God's already hooked me up fat. I'm intelligent, healthy, athletic, handsome, artistic, happy, and well-off. So, since I have no way of knowing for certain whether or not there is a God, I leave open the possibility that I'll have a higher power to be grateful to should I ever meet it. Otherwise, I'll just die and that will be that. Why is it necessary to commit to belief when it goes against what I can empirically perceive? I prefer to leave all options open and be ready for whatever.

However, I'd likely have trouble being grateful if I were stupid, sick, clumsy, ugly, sad, and poor. Why isn't life fair? Shouldn't life have the same level of difficulty for everyone? A lot of people get a hell of an unfair shake up in here. Why so random?

ahh its hard to watch those videos >_< makes you wanna jump in there and debate

Yeah, just like communism. It's actually a good idea, but it NEVER turns out well.

People are perfectly capable of being compassionate, sympathetic, and have all of these other values.. BY THEMSELVES.

Needing a god to provide you with the ability to be compassionate is saying that you're incompetent yourself.

And that just ISN'T true.

Heyheyhey, Communism can turn out well, you've just been americanized and there's only been 17 years since the cold war, so that sort of undertone is still ever-present in the United States. Look at Cuba, now, you guys may be on shaky relations, but the fact is that the country has prospered entirely thanks to not only communism, but a dictatorship. Another example, Yugoslavia under Tito, the guy held together a country containing multiple ethnic groups who all hated each other (thus why it's called the balkan powder keg) for decades! That is most certainly a success in itself.

It just depends on the conditions, extreme socialism works for Sweden, and it's the #1 place to live in the world, the USA was simply built on capatalism, so it's natural to view another ideaology as worse.

^Yeah, I've always wondered how the Soviet Union would have fared if Lenin didn't die so soon or if even Trotsky had made it to power instead of Stalin.

It just depends on the conditions, extreme socialism works for Sweden, and it's the #1 place to live in the world, the USA was simply built on capatalism, so it's natural to view another ideaology as worse.

Latest HDI it's Iceland that's nr.1. Sweden is nr. 6 and has never been nr. 1

Latest HDI it's Iceland that's nr.1. Sweden is nr. 6 and has never been nr. 1

Really? Actually that does sound right, wonder where I got that from... either way, Sweden is a pretty nice place to live, same with Norway and Finland aye? all Socialist.

Really? Actually that does sound right, wonder where I got that from... either way, Sweden is a pretty nice place to live, same with Norway and Finland aye? all Socialist.

Works nicely for the smaller countries :D