Christians aren't so defensive and sometimes pushy about Christianity just because they want everybody to think the way they do. It's because they have seen the love and grace of God in their life and they want non believers to experience the some love and grace they have experienced. You want to see some evidence of God then ask a Christian about what God has done for them.

Here is some more evidence:

You can feel God if you just touch the Bible since that is his word. And if thats not enough, accept him into your heart and experience his grace....it's like nothing else you can feel.

You can hear God if you read the Bible and listen and pray for guidance.

You can see God when you see a prayer answered in yours or a friends life.

Some more proof is that I wouldn't have wasted time typing this if I didn't believe wholeheartedly what I am saying.

I'm not gonna even argue I've got a better idea.

If I didn't believe in God already, that would come nowhere near convincing me that he exists.

OH NO!

You're worshipping a false idol!

Come to the FSM and you shall be forgiven!

OH NO!

You're worshipping a false idol!

Come to the FSM and you shall be forgiven!

Your going a little too far with that. Well....you can't eat God.....but you can eat all the pasta you want in heaven!

Blasphemous pasta, sure. I want real pasta.
and only the FSM can provide me that.

OH NO!

You're worshipping a false idol!

Come to the FSM and you shall be forgiven!

Well...do you eat your God? Seriously wondering.

No!
How Dare You Speak Of Such Forbidden Acts!

I think the best way to prove god exist is to ask god for something and when it happens you'll know he exist. God answers mine everyday, even the really big miracle type ones. Though the big ones take a while to be answered some time later you'd fine that he indeed has answered your prayers.

^^

but thats the thing. many people have asked god for something, and not in a greedily way, but there are no answers. when i used to believe in god, i asked him multiple times for help when i needed it the most, but nothing happened.

i don't know if it happens for everyone. maybe for some christians yea, he does answer prayers or questions in some way, but for others there are no answers.

I think the best way to prove god exist is to ask god for something and when it happens you'll know he exist. God answers mine everyday, even the really big miracle type ones. Though the big ones take a while to be answered some time later you'd fine that he indeed has answered your prayers.

I asked God for a pickle, still haven't gotten. Why didn't God give me a pickle?

I think the best way to prove god exist is to ask god for something and when it happens you'll know he exist. God answers mine everyday, even the really big miracle type ones. Though the big ones take a while to be answered some time later you'd fine that he indeed has answered your prayers.

But GOD CAN'T DO THAT!

ONLY THE FSM CAN!

If God has a master plan, like every Christian I've ever met seems to believe, then he certainly isn't going to change his mind because one petitioner asked him to.

bbengyak, I've already told you this but I will say it again, in hopes you might one day understand.

God answers my prayers daily, infact the only ones he has not fulfilled yet are the ones that deal with people's salvation.

For those who say God does not answer prayers, I wonder if you read Matthew. In that book you will find the conditions that IF met, will be fulfilled. basically:

1. Not selfish
2. To the glory of God, and his kingdom
3. You got faith

minicoop - stay strong. If anyone really wants evidence of God, simply look at nature. Only a God can create this universe, but man is fully capable of much lesser creations like cars, houses, etc. They refuse to know the truth because they cannot handle being told how to live their life, they want to live their own life as they see fit, and or they do not want to give up the sin that they are in bondage with. Yes, habitual sin IS bondage. Me? You? Us true followers of Christ? We enjoy a free life not being enslaved to any particular sin. Such freedom and liberation to be had while following the narrow righteous road, now excuse me. I need to eat, work out, and get into the Word.

In that book you will find the conditions that IF met, will be fulfilled. basically:

1. Not selfish
2. To the glory of God, and his kingdom
3. You got faith


1. at the time, i wasn't selfish.
2. i did believe in god, and his kingdom, and the hole nine yards.
3. I did have faith.

Now, do tell why my prayer wasn't answered ?

i'm sorry if i sound rude, thats not my intentions, its just curiousity.

They refuse to know the truth because they cannot handle being told how to live their life, they want to live their own life as they see fit, and or they do not want to give up the sin that they are in bondage with.

HA!!!!!!!!!!!

I should honestly neg you for that.
I am not a sinner.
You are probably more of a sinner than me.

How DARE you make such a statement!


As for your prayers.
Name one prayer that God answered for you.


And then consider this:
Can omniscient God,
Who knows the future,
find the omnipotence,
to change his future mind?

bbengyak, I've already told you this but I will say it again, in hopes you might one day understand.

God answers my prayers daily, infact the only ones he has not fulfilled yet are the ones that deal with people's salvation.

For those who say God does not answer prayers, I wonder if you read Matthew. In that book you will find the conditions that IF met, will be fulfilled. basically:

1. Not selfish
2. To the glory of God, and his kingdom
3. You got faith


Who's saying this is a selfish prayer. I could have a starving child right now and the only way to save him is to get him to eat a pickle but I don't have any right now and the grocery store is closed when the child gets the pickle he'll realize that it was God/Jesus was the one who saved him. Oh and I have plenty faith.

^^

but thats the thing. many people have asked god for something, and not in a greedily way, but there are no answers. when i used to believe in god, i asked him multiple times for help when i needed it the most, but nothing happened.

i don't know if it happens for everyone. maybe for some christians yea, he does answer prayers or questions in some way, but for others there are no answers.

Just wondering, what was your prayer that he didn't answer?

Not going to go out in full detail, but it was for a suicidal reasoning. it was a life or death situation.

I asked God for a pickle, still haven't gotten. Why didn't God give me a pickle?

You can ask God to buy you a Lamborghini, or to go to work for you and handle things while you take a nap. God told Moses for the first commandment that there shall be no other Gods before him, which includes material and selfish things.

In order to receive, one must sacrifice.

1. at the time, i wasn't selfish.
2. i did believe in god, and his kingdom, and the hole nine yards.
3. I did have faith.

Now, do tell why my prayer wasn't answered ?

i'm sorry if i sound rude, thats not my intentions, its just curiousity.

as far as being selfish, well the prayer itself must not be selfish.. i would assume a person who is filled with the Holy Ghost will be the opposite of selfish. You say you believed in God, you did have faith, yeah? My question to you is, if you truly did believe something like that, then how can you turn around from it? Was it blind faith, or was it authentic faith - the kind that gets you in prayer several times a day, always thanking God for what he's provided, and gettin into the Bible regularly?

Believe me, you sound very sincere and polite compared to the hostility of some of these people. It's refreshing.

Basically though, when somebody tells me they used to be a Christian but not anymore I'm like.. that's similar to getting ran over by a car and walking away sayin nothin happened. Let me explain. When you accept Jesus into your heart you are no longer a dead carcass, you are alive with the Holy Spirit. You become transformed into a new person... IF you feed the Spirit with the Word, prayer, and obey righteousness. "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things are passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Now, I have seen plenty of so called 'christians' who feed the flesh and never the spirit. Imagine yourself a cup. There are two liquids on the table. One is the world (fleshly desires, what you want to do, selfish ambitions, the list is LONG), the other is Jesus Christ (obeying his words, seekin him out, etc). You basically have to decrease, so that Jesus can INCREASE in your life. I don't see many professed Christians doing that. The Bible has already spoken clearly about this. Don't take my word for it, take the Bible's:

matthew 7:22-23

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Revelation 3:16

16So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth!

So the question is, did you experience a transformation by the Holy Spirit? If not, you were never walking with Christ. I'm not tryin to be rude either, but I'm just sayin it how it is and I'm bein real.

HA!!!!!!!!!!!

I should honestly neg you for that.
I am not a sinner.
You are probably more of a sinner than me.

How DARE you make such a statement!


As for your prayers.
Name one prayer that God answered for you.


And then consider this:
Can omniscient God,
Who knows the future,
find the omnipotence,
to change his future mind?

So your not a sinner? Have you ever lied, cheated, stolen, cursed, lusted after a woman?

My father left me when i was 7 years old. It hurt me extremely bad. I tried to find love in girls and everything else to cure the empty hole in my heart where my fathers love no longer existed.

I was never happy and couldn't figure out why. I then realized that I had all the love I ever needed in Jesus. i realized that he was there for my 24/7 and I could call on him anytime I needed help and he would comfort me.

So the question is, did you experience a transformation by the Holy Spirit? If not, you were never walking with Christ. I'm not tryin to be rude either, but I'm just sayin it how it is and I'm bein real.

but the thing is, when i was a christian, everything was terrible. i had a depression about 3 times, i was NEVER myself, and i was always closed in.

but when i became atheist, i was a much better person, i was open, polite, and i was actually myself. i could actually laugh a REAL laugh, unlike when i was a christian, i laughed a forced laugh.

So the transformation i guess was negative. i was not happy, i was always fake, and it wasn't real. i really don't know if i was walking with christ, hell, maybe from the start of my depressions i wasn't. but the thing is, how would you know if your walking with christ. i could have been walking with him the entire time, just no one knows.

but the thing is, when i was a christian, everything was terrible. i had a depression about 3 times, i was NEVER myself, and i was always closed in.

but when i became atheist, i was a much better person, i was open, polite, and i was actually myself. i could actually laugh a REAL laugh, unlike when i was a christian, i laughed a forced laugh.

So the transformation i guess was negative. i was not happy, i was always fake, and it wasn't real. i really don't know if i was walking with christ, hell, maybe from the start of my depressions i wasn't. but the thing is, how would you know if your walking with christ. i could have been walking with him the entire time, just no one knows.

M4yB3 H3 wUz lyK3, T3s7ing j00!
aNd j00 phaileD.

M4yB3 ? :O
1f h3 w45 t3s7ng m3, d3n d4t 15 cru31 !

but the thing is, when i was a christian, everything was terrible. i had a depression about 3 times, i was NEVER myself, and i was always closed in.

but when i became atheist, i was a much better person, i was open, polite, and i was actually myself. i could actually laugh a REAL laugh, unlike when i was a christian, i laughed a forced laugh.

So the transformation i guess was negative. i was not happy, i was always fake, and it wasn't real. i really don't know if i was walking with christ, hell, maybe from the start of my depressions i wasn't. but the thing is, how would you know if your walking with christ. i could have been walking with him the entire time, just no one knows.

So you blame your depression on your Christian religion... right. Ever heard of puberty?

yes since wanting to kill yourself is puberty. yup. your right.

wow.
i didn't blame it on my christian religion.
i'm saying when i WAS a christian, thats how i was !
the reason why i was in a depression was not that reason at all.

That is kind of the whole point I have been trying to get across. He is right....if you have really experienced the love and grace of God you would never turn from it.

But the thing is, i used to love god, and have all faith in life. i went to church a lot, i prayed, and almost everything. and at one point i did feel the love and grace of god, but then **** started to happen in my life, and it felt as it if was slipping away, and my connection to god was gone. and then i just gave up on faith, and became healthier mentally and physically.

Bersihman...I want you to answer the questions I asked before? or are you avoiding them on purpose?

He never said he wasn't, he said Z-28 or whatever his name is was probably more of a sinner than he.

My question to you is, if you truly did believe something like that, then how can you turn around from it?
That is kind of the whole point I have been trying to get across. He is right....if you have really experienced the love and grace of God you would never turn from it.
Funny thing about these statements, Lucifer and all the renegade angels that tried to over throw God, experienced him and (if the story is actually true) would have been sure of God's existence. These are also not sinning human beings as you claim us to be but angels, and they were able to turn for the "love and grace of God" according to the Bible.

With that in mind I'd really have to say that both your statements are false.

yes since wanting to kill yourself is puberty. yup. your right.

wow.
i didn't blame it on my christian religion.
i'm saying when i WAS a christian, thats how i was !
the reason why i was in a depression was not that reason at all.

I knew numerous friends who were like that when they first hit puberty in middle school. And by that post, you just deemed your point irrelevant, so why even bring it to the table?
Merging doublepost
But the thing is, i used to love god, and have all faith in life. i went to church a lot, i prayed, and almost everything. and at one point i did feel the love and grace of god, but then **** started to happen in my life, and it felt as it if was slipping away, and my connection to god was gone. and then i just gave up on faith, and became healthier mentally and physically.
It sounds like you have more of a commitment issue if anything. When stuff gets hard, you give up on faith. God never said life would be a cakewalk.

I knew numerous friends who were like that when they first hit puberty in middle school. And by that post, you just deemed your point irrelevant, so why even bring it to the table?
Merging doublepost

It sounds like you have more of a commitment issue if anything. When stuff gets hard, you give up on faith. God never said life would be a cakewalk.

Sounds like you're just pissed off because somebody tried your religion and didn't get a good experience out it. Pretty dumb thing to be pissed off about if you ask me.

Blasphemous pasta, sure. I want real pasta.
and only the FSM can provide me that.

Screw the FSM.

Wait, he can provide you with himself?

...

So that means you eat your own God? Poor thing...:(
Oh my, you're killing your own God.

^^

but thats the thing. many people have asked god for something, and not in a greedily way, but there are no answers. when i used to believe in god, i asked him multiple times for help when i needed it the most, but nothing happened.

i don't know if it happens for everyone. maybe for some christians yea, he does answer prayers or questions in some way, but for others there are no answers.


God only provides you with things that are able to further His kingdom.

Screw the FSM.

Wait, he can provide you with himself?

...

So that means you eat your own God? Poor thing...:(
Oh my, you're killing your own God.

You're a sinner besides spaghetti and the FSM are two different things.

The only ones eating their own God is the Catholic Church, the body of Christ (the cracker things) and the blood of Christ (wine, Christ could of used AA back in the day).

But the thing is, i used to love god, and have all faith in life. i went to church a lot, i prayed, and almost everything. and at one point i did feel the love and grace of god, but then **** started to happen in my life, and it felt as it if was slipping away, and my connection to god was gone. and then i just gave up on faith, and became healthier mentally and physically.

God puts trials in your life. During those times you get closer to God to get through it. You may not know why he is putting you through it but in the end you will get closer to and you realize why he put you through the trial.

None of the Christians seemed to want comment on this when I first posted it so I'll post it again.

My question to you is, if you truly did believe something like that, then how can you turn around from it?
That is kind of the whole point I have been trying to get across. He is right....if you have really experienced the love and grace of God you would never turn from it.

Funny thing about these statements, Lucifer and all the renegade angels that tried to over throw God, experienced him and (if the story is actually true) would have been sure of God's existence. These are also not sinning human beings as you claim us to be but angels, and they were able to turn for the "love and grace of God" according to the Bible.

With that in mind I'd really have to say that both your statements are false.

You're a sinner besides spaghetti and the FSM are two different things.

The only ones eating their own God is the Catholic Church, the body of Christ (the cracker things) and the blood of Christ (wine, Christ could of used AA back in the day).

I'm pretty sure I don't sin as much as you. And everybody is a sinner. It's impossible to not sin in a lifetime.

I'm not Catholic.
And about the FSM...

If he is a spaghetti monster, then that means he is made from spaghetti, therefore a food...that HUMANS make from WHEAT...

I'm not Catholic. And about the FSM...

If he is a spaghetti monster, then that means he is made from spaghetti, therefore a food...that HUMANS make from WHEAT...

And the FSM made humans and then inspired us to make wheat to make the spaghetti.

This is common knowledge, I seriously can't imagine how you can't understand this.

And the FSM made humans and then inspired us to make wheat to make the spaghetti.

This is common knowledge, I seriously can't imagine how you can't understand this.

Wheat cannot be made by us.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art73.htm

^^proof that spaghetti was invented by humans.^^

FSM is the sickest "joke" I have ever heard about. We all know it isn't real. I'm not even debating about this anymore, I have better things to do in my spare time :wink:.

Wheat cannot be made by us.

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art73.htm

^^proof that spaghetti was invented by humans.^^

FSM is the sickest "joke" I have ever heard about. We all know it isn't real. I'm not even debating about this anymore, I have better things to do in my spare time :wink:.

I meant harvested and like I said we may have invented spaghetti but the FSM inspired us to do so, how many times do I have to repeat this?

The fact that you thing of my deity a "joke" is the most offensive thing I've heard. You know it isn't real? Provide some proof.

Sounds like you're just pissed off because somebody tried your religion and didn't get a good experience out it. Pretty dumb thing to be pissed off about if you ask me.

Not at all. I'm just frustrated with people bringing irrelevant material into this.

^It isn't irrelevant. =Z28= is the one who brought up prayer and experiences with God as proof of his existence and Skaterbabe15 gave a testimony of the opposite and you are frustrated because it doesn't support your beliefs.

^It isn't irrelevant. =Z28= is the one who brought up prayer and experiences with God as proof of his existence and Skaterbabe15 gave a testimony of the opposite and you are frustrated because it doesn't support your beliefs.

Oh ok, thanks! Next time I need someone to explain my thoughts, ideas, and opinions to me, I'll come to you.

Someone's grouchy. {po)

Christians aren't so defensive and sometimes pushy about Christianity just because they want everybody to think the way they do. It's because they have seen the love and grace of God in their life and they want non believers to experience the some love and grace they have experienced. You want to see some evidence of God then ask a Christian about what God has done for them.

Here is some more evidence:

You can feel God if you just touch the Bible since that is his word. And if thats not enough, accept him into your heart and experience his grace....it's like nothing else you can feel.

You can hear God if you read the Bible and listen and pray for guidance.

You can see God when you see a prayer answered in yours or a friends life.

Some more proof is that I wouldn't have wasted time typing this if I didn't believe wholeheartedly what I am saying.


How come people that believe in Allah say the same exact thing on how their god has showed them they way and how their god shows them love and grace? What you believe in says that there is only one almighty god. But you here people say the same thing that your saying about your god as they do with some other god but in your view I thought there was only one god. So you are basically saying everyone that prays to a different god then you is a liar. You didn't come out and say that but that must be what you thing. Something smells fishy here...........

How come people that believe in Allah say the same exact thing on how their god has showed them they way and how their god shows them love and grace? What you believe in says that there is only one almighty god. But you here people say the same thing that your saying about your god as they do with some other god but in your view I thought there was only one god. So you are basically saying everyone that prays to a different god then you is a liar. You didn't come out and say that but that must be what you thing. Something smells fishy here...........

I'm not saying they are a liar. This will offend somebody but people who are praying to anything other than Jesus Christ is praying to nobody but themselves.
Merging doublepost
Funny thing about these statements, Lucifer and all the renegade angels that tried to over throw God, experienced him and (if the story is actually true) would have been sure of God's existence. These are also not sinning human beings as you claim us to be but angels, and they were able to turn for the "love and grace of God" according to the Bible.

With that in mind I'd really have to say that both your statements are false.

Lucifer and all the renegade angels decided they could do a better job than Jesus and they were selfish and wanted that power and tried to rebel. They didn't rebel because they didn't like Jesus's divine presence but because they decided they could do better.

How come people that believe in Allah say the same exact thing on how their god has showed them they way and how their god shows them love and grace? What you believe in says that there is only one almighty god. But you here people say the same thing that your saying about your god as they do with some other god but in your view I thought there was only one god. So you are basically saying everyone that prays to a different god then you is a liar. You didn't come out and say that but that must be what you thing. Something smells fishy here...........

Catholicism/Christianity+Judaism+Islam=All worship the same God.

I'm not saying they are a liar. This will offend somebody but people who are praying to anything other than Jesus Christ is praying to nobody but themselves.
Merging doublepost

Haha, i'm sorry but you are so conceited.


How come little Abrue Dahlonga said that Allah has showed them the way and talked to him so he can help others. And now of coarse you know Abrue is one of the most honest and honarable person on earth. Why would he lie on something like that? Why are thousands of people from thousands of different religions saying that their personal god spoke to them when most of them only beleive in one god? And i'm, sorry but saying simply "they are praying to themselves" doesn't cut it. If you could here that out side of your "religious shell?" you would understand. I'm not trying to be mean I just don't understand how so many people from so many different religions say they same exact stuff which should disprove all of this.


EDIT:

Catholicism/Christianity+Judaism+Islam=All worship the same God.

Ok, still how many different gods are there within all of the religions??? And people from all of them are saying the samething.

Ok, still how many different gods are there within all of the religions??? And people from all of them are saying the samething.

One God.

^ What are you talking about? How are they the _same God_ - are you honestly this obtuse about your own faith and others? I don't know why you keep mentioning that Islam & Christianity worship the SAME God - They don't

You believe in a TRIUNE God (father, son(jesus), holy spirit) - they DONT believe that Jesus is part of that trinity, therefore they don't believe in your God.

What would you say if I said I believed in the same God as you, except I don't believe anything he wrote anything, inspired anything, or came back as anything? Would you say it was the same God?

The Father is referred to as God. The trinity consists of The Father (God), The Son (Jesus, Son of Man), and the Holy Spirit.

No, the trinity is referred to as God.

Think of water, 2 atoms hydrogen, 1 atom oxygen. What if I said I only believed that water was in it's truest form when it was in liquid and gas, but not as a solid...would you say I understood water?

Would the water I believed, that could only change in 2 forms, be the same logical water you believe?

That's like looking at a tire and advertising to sell your car...it's NOT the same thing now is it?

One God.

How do you explain the religion of Ch'ondogyo? This is a very small religion that is based out of korea. Although they do beleive in "a" god. It is nothing like the god you worship.


Ch'ondogyo's beleive's in Haneullim, also known as Lord of Heaven, they believe that man is not created from a supernatural god, but instead is caused by an innate GOD. Although this is a very small religion it is a very old one.

If you would like to learn more about Ch'ondogyo you can search it and learn some more. It used to be called Donghak until around 1905 when it was changed by korean nationalist.

So with that said, there is more then one god. Yes they are both considered "god" but the views behind them are completely different. So this here disproves your statement of only being "one god". Sorry.

^ He's obviously confused and 100% wrong when he says ALL religions believe in the same God - that's just flat out absurd

^ He's obviously confused and 100% wrong when he says ALL religions believe in the same God - that's just flat out absurd

Nowhere did I say all religions. I said Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
Merging doublepost
No, the trinity is referred to as God.

The trinity can be referred to as God, but the Father is referred to as God. Ever hear the Apostles' or Nicene Creed?

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the almighty..."

Ok, still how many different gods are there within all of the religions??? And people from all of them are saying the samething.


one god


Nowhere did I say all religions. I said Christianity, Judaism and Islam.


Um, yea you did.

Um, yea you did.

My bad, misread that.

+rep to MysterySk8er3for ownage

The trinity can be referred to as God, but the Father is referred to as God. Ever hear the Apostles' Creed?

"We believe in one God,
the Father, the almighty..."

Of course, and Jesus also said "I & thy father are one"

I never said the Bible never had contradictions, they're all over the place...you still havent answered my question about 'water' and whether it'd be considered the same.

+rep to MysterySk8er3for ownage



Of course, and Jesus also said "I & thy father are one"

I never said the Bible never had contradictions, they're all over the place...you still havent answered my question about 'water' and whether it'd be considered the same.

Because it's not worth my time, and you know it will fall on deaf ears. Neither of us is going to change eachothers' minds. And yeah, major PWNAGE OMGLOLWTFBBQZ

read my above post.

I don't have time to bicker about difference in belief (well, in your case, disbelief) with you guys. Have a good one...

+rep to MysterySk8er3for ownage



Of course, and Jesus also said "I & thy father are one"

I never said the Bible never had contradictions, they're all over the place...you still havent answered my question about 'water' and whether it'd be considered the same.

Give me a contradiction....

mysterysk8er3.

"it's not worth my time"

on the contrary! is it not worth your time to prove the claims which you have made?

if your first thought was to respond saying "what claims", please don't play dumb.

you have made claims which razz has clearly pointed out flaws in, and given you an example to decide for yourself what you are really saying. surely proving that you are correct in what you are saying is worth your time, right? otherwise, please don't talk to others about not proving their devout following of the FSM. i'm not sure if it was you who said that, but please refrain, whoever did so.

(no disrespect meant, i just wanted to ask you to further what you said ;))

mysterysk8er3.

"it's not worth my time"

on the contrary! is it not worth your time to prove the claims which you have made?

if your first thought was to respond saying "what claims", please don't play dumb.

you have made claims which razz has clearly pointed out flaws in, and given you an example to decide for yourself what you are really saying. surely proving that you are correct in what you are saying is worth your time, right? otherwise, please don't talk to others about not proving their devout following of the FSM. i'm not sure if it was you who said that, but please refrain, whoever did so.

(no disrespect meant, i just wanted to ask you to further what you said ;))

Yea man I honestly have no clue what you just said. I'm not sure if you meant me or not but either way... yea i'm lost. If you did mean me I would be happy to try and explain what ever it is you are talking about but please re-post and maybe quote what your talking about so i'm not so confused. If you mistaked me for someone else then, well that would make sense.....

Because it's not worth my time, and you know it will fall on deaf ears. Neither of us is going to change eachothers' minds. And yeah, major PWNAGE OMGLOLWTFBBQZ

read my above post.

I don't have time to bicker about difference in belief (well, in your case, disbelief) with you guys. Have a good one...

Ahh I see, so you can't respond to my answer because you already look like an idiot and then go to the "I don't have time" response - considering you had all this type to type paragraphs of nonsense...right?

Give me a contradiction....

"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother..." -- Deuteronomy 27:22

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter...it is a wicked thing...." -- Leviticus 20:17

Yet Abraham marries his sister Sarah (Genesis 17:15-16)

Ahh I see, so you can't respond to my answer because you already look like an idiot and then go to the "I don't have time" response - considering you had all this type to type paragraphs of nonsense...right?

I look like an idiot? Nope. Just defending my beliefs against some 19 year old internet bad-ass/master debator who gets off by trying to bring others down because of their beliefs. You and I both know that what I say or what you say won't change either of our minds, so it essentially is a waste of time I could've spent doing better things, perhaps praying to my God that people like you could potentially find better hobbies, such as skateboarding (which is what this site is about, anyways). If you believe so strongly about your thoughts, go write a book and stop preaching to gullible 12 year olds who will believe anything that is said by someone with a colored name on a messageboard.

In other words, kiss my ass! (ass as in donkey.)

I look like an idiot? Nope. Just defending my beliefs against some 19 year old internet bad-ass/master debator who gets off by trying to bring others down because of their beliefs. You and I both know that what I say or what you say won't change either of our minds, so it essentially is a waste of time I could've spent doing better things, perhaps praying to my God that people like you could potentially find better hobbies, such as skateboarding (which is what this site is about, anyways). If you believe so strongly about your thoughts, go write a book and stop preaching to gullible 12 year olds who will believe anything that is said by someone with a colored name on a messageboard.

In other words, kiss my ass! (ass as in donkey.)

Ahhahha that's right, I'm such a badass! And I'm a 'masturbater'

Listen, don't put words in my mouth, who said that *I* won't ever change? See, that's the difference between people like you and people like me. People like you admit that (no matter what), nothing will ever-ever-ever change their minds. People like me on the other hand are always open to the possibility, always open to change so long as the evidence is there.

And ironically enough, you mentioned how I convince "gullible" 12 year olds who would "believe anything that is said" - right?

Perhaps you're completely oblivious to the fact that you were gullible enough to believe in a space-fairy and believe anything that is said by a man wearing a robe.

So again, if you want to see gullible, just look in the mirror

damn it razz! good points though, basically you re-stated my thing.

mysterysk8er3, sorry that was directed at ShredTheGnar.


(btw, i mean no disrespect as i mentioned.)


::::EDIT::::

now now ShredTheGnar, was the negative rep necessary? all i asked was that you follow up on what you said. razz clearly pointed this out also, as i first misdirected my comment. I specifically mentioned that i meant no disrespect for you. thank you for the neg rep.

I think the best way to prove god exist is to ask god for something and when it happens you'll know he exist. God answers mine everyday, even the really big miracle type ones. Though the big ones take a while to be answered some time later you'd fine that he indeed has answered your prayers.

i believe in god with my whole heart, but what you said about it happening isnt very convincing, the way you put it, i mean it could be irony, but i understand and agree with what you are saying. i pray a lot about my friends and family. example, my friend started doing drugs, and i asked my preacer to keep him in his prayers, and i prayed that he would see it was stupid, and he stopped doing drugs a few days after. :icon_bigg

I don't have anything to say on the subject, cause I'm not getting into the middle of it, but for someone to neg someone else for their beliefs is ****ing stupid, whoever did that is just dumb and ignorant.

i believe in god with my whole heart, but what you said about it happening isnt very convincing, the way you put it, i mean it could be irony, but i understand and agree with what you are saying. i pray a lot about my friends and family. example, my friend started doing drugs, and i asked my preacer to keep him in his prayers, and i prayed that he would see it was stupid, and he stopped doing drugs a few days after. :icon_bigg

One time my friend was doing drugs and I've been known to wear white socks. One day I decided to wear black socks and BOOM, he called me that same day and told me he was no longer a drug addict.

Coincidence?

I don't have anything to say on the subject, cause I'm not getting into the middle of it, but for someone to neg someone else for their beliefs is ****ing stupid, whoever did that is just dumb and ignorant.

Someone negged me too...

One time my friend was doing drugs and I've been known to wear white socks. One day I decided to wear black socks and BOOM, he called me that same day and told me he was no longer a drug addict.

Coincidence?

Yep, sure is.

Someone negged me too...

someone negged me too...

*cough cough*

I don't have anything to say on the subject, cause I'm not getting into the middle of it, but for someone to neg someone else for their beliefs is ****ing stupid, whoever did that is just dumb and ignorant.

Somebody negged me too calling me a brainwashed idiot. Because name calling is so mature. Thanks man.

I think we all need to(including myself) just calm down and have a friendly debate about our religious beliefs. Calling each other names is just stupid and immature. Let's make progress on this thread.

i believe in god with my whole heart, but what you said about it happening isnt very convincing, the way you put it, i mean it could be irony, but i understand and agree with what you are saying. i pray a lot about my friends and family. example, my friend started doing drugs, and i asked my preacer to keep him in his prayers, and i prayed that he would see it was stupid, and he stopped doing drugs a few days after.That's all coincidence. Just like Razz's example.

I also find the idea that you think prayer has an impact on anything outside of your mind to be absolutely absurd.

There have been controlled experiments that have PROVEN that prayer does nothing.
But surely you'll say it was "Satan" changing the experiment results right?

Berishman, I'm sorry for in any way making fun of Pastafarianism(sorry if I spelled it wrong.) Anybody who i could have offended that goes for yall too. Thanks, and I hope yall accept my apologies.
Merging doublepost
That's all coincidence. Just like Razz's example.

I also find the idea that you think prayer has an impact on anything outside of your mind to be absolutely absurd.

There have been controlled experiments that have PROVEN that prayer does nothing.
But surely you'll say it was "Satan" changing the experiment results right?

No, I wouldn't say that satan was the reason for that. Could you give me a link or something to these test results.

When i was much younger I was lost in a store and scared to death. I prayed that I would find my parents. As soon as I finished praying I was very calm and no longer worried. Also of a sudden a thought popped in my head to go look in a section of the store and sure enough they were there!

Give me a contradiction....

HA!

Here you go:
God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.
Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
How many stalls and horsemen?

1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
Is it folly to be wise or not?

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
Human vs. ghostly impregnation

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
The bat is not a bird

LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
Rabbits do not chew their cud

LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

"Gerah," the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated "chew the cud" in the KJV is more exactly "bring up the cud." Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.
Insects do NOT have four feet

LEV 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
LEV 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
LEV 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
Snails do not melt

PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
Fowl from waters or ground?

GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Odd genetic engineering

GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.
The shape of the earth

ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt

GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Earth supported?

JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Heaven supported too

JOB 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
The hydrological cycle

ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Storehouses are not part of the cycle
Order of creation

Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are "days," "evenings," and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim," which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods." In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good."

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)

How orderly were things created?
#1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three "days."
#2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)
Moses' personality

NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."
Righteous live?

PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."
Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?

MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."
Jesus' last words

MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
Years of famine

II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;
Moved David to anger?

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?

In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.
God be seen?

EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)
CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)
Tempts?

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)
Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)
Ascend to heaven

"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)
What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?

Before the **** crow - MAT 26:34

Before the **** crow twice - MAR 14:30
How many times did the **** crow?

MAR 14:72 And the second time the **** crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the **** crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the **** crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the **** crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the **** crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The **** shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount

MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Does every man sin?

1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Who bought potter's field

ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Who prophesied the potter's field?

MAT 27:9-10 (mentions Jeremy but no such verse in Jeremiah) is in Zechariah 11:12-13
Who bears guilt?

GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Do you answer a fool?

PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?

2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:
How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?

2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.
Marriage?

Proverbs 18:22
1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40)
Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?

ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?

MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

(various traipsings)
How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?

1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
MAT 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
ACT 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)

MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Judging

1 Cor 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)

1 Cor 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."
Good deeds

Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)
For or against?

MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)
Whom did they see at the tomb?

MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
God change?

MAL 3:6
JAS 1:17
1SA 15:29
JON 3:10
GEN 6:6
Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)
Who's sepulchers

ACT 7:16
GEN 23:17,18
Strong drink?

PRO 31:6,7
JOH 2:11-11
When second coming?

MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(See also 1TH 4:15-18)
Solomon's overseers

1KI 9:23 550
2CH 8:10 250
The mother of Abijah:

2CH 11:20 Maachah the daughter of Absalom

2CH 13:2 Michaiah the daughter of Uriel
When did Baasha die?

1KI 16:6-8 26th year of the reign of Asa

2CH 16:1 36th year of the reign of Asa
How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?

2KI 8:26 22

2CH 22:2 42
Who was Josiah's successor?

2CH 36:1 Jehoahaz

JER 22:11 Shallum
The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah.
What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?

MAT 27:28 scarlet

JOH 19:2 purple
What did they give him to drink?

MAT 27:34 vinegar

MAR 15:23 wine with myrrh
How long was Jesus in the tomb?

Depends where you look; MAT 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," and MAR 10:34 has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again." As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days," but the post-Resurrection narratives have "on the third day."
References

The King James version of the Bible.

Self-Contradictions of the Bible by William Henry Burr (written in 1859 as a response to fundamentalism).

The X-Rated Bible: An Irreverent Survey of Sex in the Scriptures by Ben Edward Akerley

The Bible Handbook. (This is a compilation of several previous works by several authors, including W.P. Ball, G.W. Foote, and John Bowden. It's a collection of biblical contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, immoralities, indecencies, obscenities, unfulfilled prophecies and broken promises. This 372-page volume will give the atheist tons of scriptural ammunition for shooting down the flimsy arguments of the reality impaired.)

Classified Biblical Extracts Or, The Holy Scriptures Analyzed: Showing Its Contradictions, Absurdities And Immoralities by Robert Cooper (originally published in 1840).

DeHaan, M. R.
508 Answers to Bible Questions : with answers to seeming Bible contradictions. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Zondervan, [1968?], c1952.
UCSB Library BS538 .D43 1968

Thaddaeus, Joannes, fl. 1630.
The reconciler of the Bible inlarged : wherein above three thousand seeming contradictions throughout the Old and New Testament are fully and plainly reconciled ... London : Printed for Simon Miller ..., 1662.
Series title: Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1052:9.
UCSD Central MICRO F 524 Current Periodical Microform

Poole, Matthew, 1624-1679.
Annotations upon the Holy Bible. Vol. II : wherein the sacred text is inserted, and various readings annex'd, together with the parallel scriptures : the more difficult terms in each verse are explained... The third edition, with the addition of a new concordance and tables, by Mr. Sam. Clark; the whole corrected and amended by the said Mr. Sam. Clark and Mr. Edward Veale .. London : Printed for Thomas Parkhurst [and 6 others], MDCXCVI [1696].
Series title: Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1041:1.
UCSD Central MICRO F 524 Current Periodical Microform


Heres some more fun stuff:
In March 23 of 2003 I received the following question by email. I was encouraged to publish my answer online, since it would be of help to many others faced with the same question.[1] Some of my advice is applicable to many other questions of a similar nature, exemplifying the utility of the Secular Web Library as a research resource. The question went as follows:

Hello Mr. Carrier. I have a question about the Immanuel Prophecy (Isaiah 7:14). Did the Prophet Isaiah say that a "virgin" or a "young woman" would conceive? According to Tim Callahan in his book Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment? (cf. pp. 115-16), the Hebrew word almah, "meaning a young woman of marriageable age, was translated into Greek in the Septuagint as parthenos or 'virgin.' Had the Hebrew meant to say virgin it would have used bethulah, which means specifically a virgin." Yet according to I. J. Mikulski, a Catholic priest, Isaiah "used the word almah that can be translated 'young woman' as a synonym for 'virgin.' In fact," he says, "there is no instance in the Hebrew Sacred Writings (our Old Testament) where almah means a young woman who is not a virgin." Mikulski says "Old Testament writers understood that and chose their words accordingly. Matthew also understood that, of course, when he quoted Isaiah's word in Greek." Thus, "He used the word parthenos that has the precise meaning 'virgin'. That's the word used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Sacred Writings (Old Testament) translated about 250 B.C. by Jewish scholars for the Greek-speaking Jewish community in Egypt. So," according to Mikulski, "nearly three centuries before Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, nearly three centuries before anyone had reason to question Catholic doctrine, the meaning of Isaiah's words almah-parthenos-virgin was clear." Between Callahan and Mikulski, who is right?

This is a very old debate. Callahan's argument, for example, was long ago made by the infamous infidels Joseph Wheless and Joseph McCabe, whose writings are made available in the Secular Web Historical Library.[2] But their writings and methods are much out of date. We have several better discussions of the issue in the Secular Web Modern Library, which demonstrate that Callahan is not making anything up. For instance, the Hebrews did have a word that more clearly meant virgin: bethulah. So the choice of almah does count against Mikulski, with regard to the original Hebrew text of the bible. For three more modern analyses of the whole question of this virgin birth prophecy, see the relevant essays by James Still, Jim Lippard, and Farrell Till.[3]

However, it is important to point out first that the debate might be moot anyway. For the two options presented by Callahan and Mikulski do not exhaust all the possibilities, since Isaiah can be interpreted non-supernaturally even if he did mean virgin. After all, is it really unusual for a virgin to conceive? Say, on her wedding night? True, then she isn't a virgin anymore. But she was until she conceived (literally, not at that very moment, but the Bible is rarely so precise). Since conception does not always occur the first time it would still be significant to say that a virgin conceived, meaning only that she conceived the first time she was with a man. In fact, this is the very conclusion reached by the renowned Catholic scholar and nativity expert Raymond Brown (whose own analysis of this question I will discuss further below).[4]

But that aside, in sum, the truth is more likely with Callahan. Here are the various reasons why:

1. The Textual Tradition is not Iron Clad

Mikulski has his history just a bit wrong, and the ground is shakier than he implies. First, the Septuagint translated around 250 B.C. was originally just the Torah. The book of Isaiah wasn't in it. The translation of Isaiah into Greek was added to the Septuagint a century or so later (as with other OT books, including several that were not accepted into the Christian OT canon).[5] So Mikulski is wrong to assert that the translation to parthenos predates Matthew by three centuries (it probably predates Matthew by no more than one or two centuries, possibly less). Nor can Mikulski know that all Jewish scholars agreed on how Isaiah should be translated. We don't know who added the extant translation of Isaiah to the Septuagint, or when, or where, or for what Jewish sect.

We also can't be sure parthenos was the original reading. We have other pieces of the Septuagint among the Dead Sea Scrolls with variant readings not found in extant manuscripts of those same books. Since these are only small pieces, the fact that they contain otherwise unknown variants means there were probably variant readings for numerous other verses that are no longer attested in surviving manuscripts of the Septuagint. In other words, when Matthew wrote, not all copies of the Septuagint said the same thing. So alterations for sectarian reasons could have taken place between the first translation of Isaiah and Matthew's reading of it. Since we don't have any pre-Christian manuscripts with this verse in Greek, we can't know for certain how common a reading parthenos was.

So, for example, if Matthew was relying on copies of Isaiah produced by Essenes, the Essenes could have altered the text for their own stylistic or sectarian reasons. Since Christians essentially chose which versions of the Septuagint would be preserved to the present day, we may have lost others that had different readings, and therefore we can't be sure all Jewish scholars before Matthew were in agreement on whether parthenos was the most appropriate term.[6] We already know that Matthew took his verb from one of two variant readings for this verse.[7] So how many other variants were there that are now lost?

Of course, we can't even be sure of the underlying Hebrew or Aramaic for the same reason. We know numerous variants existed in the Hebrew and Aramaic already in Matthew's time, and many more remain today. So the argument cuts both ways. But the overall point remains: discussion of what words were where is always an uncertain business. This is aptly demonstrated by professor of Biblical History and Archaeology Gerald Larue here on the Secular Web.[8] Although this is, overall, a relatively minor point, it is significant enough to consider, contrary to Mikulski's argument, that Jewish sectarianism could lie behind parthenos rather than unanimous Jewish agreement, and that the parthenos reading might have been a more recent development before Matthew's time than Mikulski imagines.

2. The Greek Is Not So Definite

The Greek word parthenos carries a basic meaning of 'girl', hence it denotes 'virgin' only by implication. And in fact this word could also be used to refer to non-virgin women who weren't married. Homer so uses it, and Homer was the standard textbook for learning Greek all throughout antiquity, so any writer of Greek would know of this word's versatile and indefinite meaning.[9] So the Jewish translators need not have had virginity in mind, but youth. Still, this word carried a strong connotation of virginity, and there were Greek words that didn't carry that connotation (like neanis). And Mikulski is right to point out that the choice to go with parthenos was made, presumably, by Jews. Even so, we can't know what was in the mind of the scribe who chose that word. It is possible the Jewish translator of Isaiah wasn't taking sides on whether 'virgin' was meant but was using a word that could mean either, and that only later did Christians take it as definitely meaning 'virgin'.

Besides all that, the argument Mikulski uses works against him just as forcefully: for if the choice of parthenos over neanis by the Greek translator implies virginity, then the choice of almah over bethulah by the original author (presumably Isaiah--or, according to Christian belief, God Himself, speaking through his prophet) implies nonvirginity. Thus, even if some Jewish translator (speaking a Hebrew that is three hundred years newer than Isaiah's) took this passage to be about a virgin, this does not make it any more likely that this passage originally meant a virgin. For contrary to Mikulski's argument, a mistake by a Jew is still a mistake.

3. Evidence of OT Usage Is Uncertain in This Case

I am also skeptical of Mikulski's usage argument. Being an experienced translator who has worked with five languages, I can confidently say it has always been nearly impossible to identify the exact parameters of denotation for every instance of a word in a surviving corpus. I'll bet we have dozens if not hundreds of occasions where almah is used, in and out of the OT, where we can't know if the denoted girl was a virgin or not. There is no way to make this determination in most cases of its use even within the OT.[10] Thus, we cannot assert too confidently that it never referred to nonvirgins. Many of the uses of the word even in the OT could refer to nonvirgins. We can't pretend to know for sure.

This problem is compounded by the fact that the frequency of such an alternate usage would be too low for us to count on there being clear, extant examples. It would have been unusual for "a young woman of marriageable age" not to be a virgin. Fornication, even being raped in some cases, was a death penalty offense.[11] So not many such girls lived long enough to be called anything, much less almah. Divorce was also not generally an option for a woman. Only her husband could send her away, and only for sexual infidelity. By law, a man could not divorce a woman who was a virgin on their wedding night. Hence a woman's father was expected to keep the bloody honeymoon sheets and show them to the whole community as proof of her virginity in order to block a divorce.[12] Women most often died before their husbands, and usually in labor: the mortality rate was probably around 10% for each birth. So young widows were rare, and virginal widows must have been incredibly rare (although not impossible: a husband who died before he made it to the bed would leave a girl a virgin and a widow). At any rate, a young nonvirgin, whether slut, whore, rape victim, divorcee, or widow, could have been called "a young woman of marriageable age," hence almah. We just don't know of many examples, so we don't know if the word would have been used or refused in which cases.

So even if we find almah referring in some definite cases to actual virgins, it doesn't follow that this was the only correct use of the word. It may have applied to any young unmarried girl, or to any young girl who married as a virgin. Nonvirgin young women would have been so rare that we're unlikely to have many examples of them being referred to. Hence we can't say what word would have been used for them. Yet it may have been almah, since it seems there was no better word to use. We can't be sure it wasn't. Moreover, the fact that the Hebrews saw a need to coin a word more definitely meaning 'virgin' (bethulah) implies that almah did not definitely mean virgin.

4. Where Is the Proper Method?

Both scholars seem to be deploying bad methodology. Callahan, like McKinsey,[13] doesn't really tell readers how he knows what he knows. Nor does Mikulski. I personally happen to know that the argument comes from ancient Jewish polemics against Christianity. But I would expect Callahan to tell his readers that, identifying where the argument first appeared, and where else it has been argued that a reader can get more information from.

For example, the fact that this is one of the earliest Jewish polemics against Christianity adds a great deal of weight to Callahan's argument against Mikulski. If even ancient Jews agreed with Callahan on the meaning of the Hebrew word, then that pretty much refutes Mikulski, who is a decidedly inferior expert--not being a native speaker of ancient Hebrew, much less a lifetime Hebrew scholar, like the rabbis of old (who were devoted to mastering and debating the Jewish meaning of what is unmistakably a Jewish book). Still, I want to know what the ancient Christian commentaries on the NT and Isaiah passages had to say about this, and what the Jewish Midrashic literature on Isaiah had to say. Neither Callahan nor Mikulski even seem to be interested in that.

5. Competent Authority Goes against Mikulski

They also should have consulted current scholarly commentaries in print. The best on this issue is Raymond Brown's Birth of the Messiah. Like Mikulski, Brown is a devout Catholic. But he is an objective scholar, usually fair to all parties in any debate, and always erudite and cautious. He is internationally recognized as a leading, if not the leading expert on the Christian nativity accounts.

So I pulled him off my shelf and looked up the passage in question. And lo and behold, Brown tells us, with citations and quotations, that Callahan's argument appeared first in a 2nd century Christian apologetic work: Justin's Dialogue with Trypho (also known as Dialogue with a Jew). This proves, against Mikulski, that even ancient Jews didn't believe almah meant only virgin, for Christians had to defend their reading of 'virgin' against Jewish critics, from the very earliest times (cf. Larue, above, for more on this point). Brown also relates some of the colorful history of the debate, like that fundamentalists once burned copies of the RSV translation of the OT because it had "young woman" in Isaiah, and Catholic bishops compelled Catholic translators of the NAB translation to go against their better judgment and put 'virgin' there. Thus Brown observes that many modern translations are the victim of ideological censorship (a common problem, and a main reason why if you haven't read the Bible in the original languages, then you haven't really read it).[14]

All in all, Brown's detailed analysis only confirms Callahan's point, not Mikulski's. For instance, as Brown explains, Justin knew that Jews understood Isaiah to be referring to Hezekiah, son of Ahaz, and thus the Christians were "reinterpreting" a prophecy that had already been fulfilled. Brown also cites important scholarship on the meaning of almah and other details, making him an essential reference on this, if you want to explore the matter further. He surveys additional points and concludes that "Isa. 7:14 does not refer to a virginal conception in the distant future" but to "the imminent birth of a child, probably Davidic, but naturally conceived" (§ 5B2, i.e. p. 148). Since this comes from a renowned authority who is Catholic (and thus going against his biases), this conclusion carries special weight here.

To look at the question from a typical messianic Jew's perspective, I always consult my copy of David Stern's Jewish New Testament Commentary (1992). Stern is a messianic Jew who also believes Jesus was the messiah, and was virgin born. Consequently, he defends Mikulski's position. But if you read Stern against Brown you will readily see that Stern's analysis is off base and a bit naive and misleading.[15] For instance, he argues that since almah implied a good reputation, which required virginity, it thus entailed virginity. But this does not address widows (who had a good reputation even if not virgins), nor is implication the same as entailment. Stern is also not cognizant of the opinion of myself and Brown that within the natural ambiguity of the text in question virgins of good reputation can naturally conceive--not just in the sense that they can conceive on their wedding night (which is certainly a possible meaning of the Isaiah passage), but also, as Brown points out, in the sense that a man might in the future take as a bride someone who is now a virgin. On that reading, "a virgin will conceive" in the sense that someone who is now a virgin, at the time Isaiah spoke, would at some point marry and have a child (possibly even conceiving the moment she loses her virginity). Certainly that would be considered a fulfillment of the prophecy.


A point I have illustrated in a thread that feedmegrease accidentally moved to the garbage: (THIS ONE SHOWS THAT PRAYER IS ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS AND NOTHING MORE THAN A WASTE OF TIME)
1. Prayer Tells God Nothing

"Telling God Things in Prayer
When we pray, we are conveying our thoughts to what we think of as God. But, if God is all-knowing then it already knows anything we say. If we pray because we are feeling insecure or frightened... God already knows how we feel. If we pray because we want God to make a friend recover from illness... then God already knows that we want it to help our friend. So what is the point of praying to God for these things? It is certainly not because it needs us to, or because we want it to tell it something that it already knows!"

Vexen, on how God Does Not Need Prayer or other things, 2004 Oct

2. Praying is Against God's Will

God Knows What Is Best
Of all the many courses of action or inaction, God knows which is best. An all-knowing God knows everything. No Human being can possibly change the facts: No Human can change the fact that God knows what course of action is best. As God does what is best, then no Human can change the will of God. If God wants to do something, God will do it. If God doesn't want to do something, God won't do it. An eternal being, all-powerful, and perfect, God knows what is best.

If you pray for a friend to miraculously recover from an inoperable brain disease, what will happen? If God wants to cure the person, it will. If it doesn't want to, it won't. It will cure that person when God knows is the best time; or, it wont cure that person. God knows what is best. God will be done! What are you thinking when you pray for God to change its mind?

Praying Is Against God's Will
To pray for something to happen is to say to God that you know better than it! It is to say that you do not agree with the course of events that God has laid out. To pray for something is to go against God's will, to ask God to act at a time when God knows it is not the right time to act. If it is right, God will have already planned to do it. If it is wrong, God won't do it. Your prayer will not change these facts. To pray is to oppose God, to harass it, to make a statement that you think you know better! To pray is insolent, ignorant, misguided, confused but most of all arrogant.

Jesus said "Get thee behind me, Satan!" to an apostle who thought he knew better than God's plan (even though the apostle was bemoaning suffering!)... by trying to sway God's mind through prayer, YOU are behaving in the same way as that apostle! No matter how good your intentions are, your own master in chief, Mr Christ, would call you Satanic for it! Think about what it means to pray, hope or wish for things, you might find you're not doing what your God wants you to be doing!
3. Praying is Selfish

Who are we Really Praying to?
Given that prayer is irrelevant to an all-knowing or perfectly good god, why do theists do it? The answer is that praying is for ourselves. The standard Christian response to the above arguments is just that... that it is us that psychologically need prayer. But, however, the Christian response is narrow. The function that prayer plays is as the facilitator of introspective reflection. Theist religions call it "prayer", Eastern ones call it "meditation". Psychologically it is introspection. In all cases it is connected to the internal states of the person involved.

Selfishness
Prayer or meditation, be it Christian, Buddhist, Muslim or Jewish, is all for the self, not for God, as God doesn't need it. But most Christians and theists do not admit that it is an essentially selfish action!

In Satanism, my own religion, it is common knowledge that religious symbols are reflections of the self, nothing more. But those who meditate and those who pray delude themselves into thinking it is "God" that wants them to do it, rather than admitting they're doing it for themselves. Self-help works better when it is done honestly, "prayer" should be called "meditation" or "philosophical introspection".
4. Praying is Magic

Praying is Supernatural
When you pray, the words and thoughts are believed to achieve potential results. This is no different from a wizard or a pagan casting a spell: It is no different to any other supernatural event. It is supernatural because the affect is not achieved through the physical laws of nature that can be investigated through science. If Thor raises a magic army to fight for him, God reanimates the bodies of the dead, a Hindu god makes a statue cry, a Pagan fertility rite has an affect, it is all magic. Now, if a group of pagan perform a healing ritual, or even a solitary pagan burns a statement of healing on a piece of paper, and it works, theists will no doubt say that it only worked because their God wanted it to work. Many others would call it magic. The actual method by which the ritual worked is unknown. It is the same with prayer: When people think that prayer has been successful, they ascribe the cause and effect of it to God. But this cause and effect could by any supernatural phenomenon.

Praying Is Magic
It could be that the spirits of the dead carry out the wishes of a Christian who prays; it could be that everyone, including Christians have spiritual animal guides, and these oversee people's wishes and prayers, and go forth and make some such wishes actually happen. We simply do not know what happens; hence, it is not only supernatural but it is magic.

Now, assume there is a God and that that God chooses to act on someone's prayer. God has to then break the chain of cause and affect if it wants to change the course of events. This unnatural act is no different from any other supernatural magical event; all such events break the natural laws of cause and affect as understood by science. It is magic. God's methods, when it intervenes in the world, are magical. Miracles are magic. When miracles occur, we never know which god makes them occur, or which method. We don't know if spells, prayers, rituals, and wishes are made effective by quantum souls, gods, fairies, demons, dead spirits, etc. No matter which one of these potential beneficiaries carried out our will, it is a magical result.
5. Christianity

Christian Cross Icon"The gospels state that Jesus stated that prayer should be done in private, so that others can not see, behind closed doors, in secret and not in public. Matthew 6:5-6 is backed up by many other versus that tell us also that this is the only way Jesus prayed. All the other gospels have Jesus pray in the same way, practicing what he preached. Matthew also says that Jesus instructed that prayer not be repetitious, with 'much speaking' 'as the heathens do'. The criticism is made many times of those who bring attention to their own prayers, so that others will think they are good: Prayer should be private. So much for Christians who say "I will pray for you", as if they're earning cookie points when actually they're rebelling against God's wishes!"

"Christian Prayer" conclusion, by Vexen 2005 Dec

6. Satanism

Satanic Symbol"The Satanist shuns terms such as "hope" and "prayer" as they are indicative of apprehension. If we hope and pray for something to come about, we will not act in a positive way which will make it happen. The Satanist, realizing that anything he gets is of his own doing, takes command of the situation instead of praying[...]. Positive thinking and positive action add up to results."

The Satanic Bible, Book of Lucifer 1:paragraph 4

Vexen's Website on Satanism: [Link]

* "Prayer is something Satanists don't like the sound of..." by Vexen Crabtree, 2003 Apr

7. Scientific Studies of Prayer

There have not been many scientific investigations on the power of prayer. One of the largest was called the "Great Prayer Experiment", and is reported on below by Prof. Richard Dawkins:

“An amusing, if rather pathetic, case study in miracles is the Great Prayer Experiment: does praying for patients help them recover? Prayers are commonly offered for sick people, both privately and in formal places of worship. Darwin's cousin Francis Galton was the first to analyse scientifically whether praying for people is efficacious. He noted that every Sunday, in churches throughout Britain, entire congregations prayed publicly for the health of the royal family. Shouldn't they, therefore, be unusually fit, compared with the rest of us, who are prayed for only by our nearest and dearest? Galton looked into it, and found no statistical difference. His intention may, in any case, have been satirical, as also when he prayed over randomized plots of land to see if the plants would grow any faster (they didn't).

Valiantly shouldering aside all mockery, the team of researchers [from the Templeton Foundation] soldiered on, spending $2.4 million of Templeton money under the leadership of Dr Herbert Benson, a cardiologist at the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston. [...] Dr Benson and his team monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals, all of whom received coronary bypass surgery. [...] Prayers were delivered by the congregations of three churches, one in Minnesota, one in Massachusetts and one in Missouri. [...] The results, reported in the American Heart Journal of April 2006, were clear-cut.”

"The God Delusion" by Prof. Richard Dawkins, p61-63

The patients were divided into 3 (double-blind) groups:

* Group 1: Received prayers, but were not told about them. This tests if prayers helped them recover more than normal patients. Their recovery was average.

* Group 2: Received no prayers, and were not told so. This tested if there was something about the experiment that was affecting the results. Their recovery was also average.

* Group 3: Received prayers and were told so. This tested the psychosomatic effects of knowing that one is being prayed for. This group "suffered significantly more complications".

What amazing results! Prof. Dawkins continues:

“Was God doing a bit of smiting, to show his disapproval of the whole barmy enterprise? It seems more probable that those patients who knew they were being prayed for suffered additional stress in consequence: [...] Dr Charles Bethea, one of the researchers, said, 'It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?' In today's litigious society [will they] put together a class action lawsuit against the Templeton Foundation?”

"The God Delusion" by Prof. Richard Dawkins, p63

Of course, it makes no sense that prayers would help. If God wanted people to get better, God is all-powerful and will make it so if it is for the greater good. If God doesn't want to, it won't. This is related to the argument above that praying is against God's will. Also, if there was a good god, it would automatically pray, itself, for the full recovery of all victims, and as God's prayers are not only to itself, but they are also the result of an all-powerful being, it holds that if God wants people to recover, then all people will recover. It can be no other way, unless god is not all-powerful. Unfortunately, as there is much suffering, some argue that this is proof that god is evil.
8. Conclusion
“If you insist on keeping the myth of the effectiveness of prayer alive, you owe the rest of us a justification in the face of the evidence.”

Daniel C. Dennett, Skeptical Inquirer (2007)3

God knows everything - everything we say in prayer, God already knows. The point of praying is definitely not to reveal things to an all-knowing God. God acts only when God knows it is good to act, the wishes of prayer can only ever be against God's will, as I have elaborated on above. So, when prayer works, how does it work? If prayer works, then it is either coincidence (you've prayed for something that was going to happen anyway) or, you knew what was best better than God did, and God intervened!. The latter is impossible. Magic, or prayers, when they are effective, must be against God's will. If you ask a Christian or a Muslim, what will they say is the magical force that acts against God's will? Satan's will. If a supernatural affect such as prayer goes against God's will, then it is Satanic. As such, prayer is either useless, or Satanic. What business, then, have theists got in praying? This is a warning to all god believers that they must be very careful of their own motives when they get together and pray for things!

The Great Prayer Experiment, and the fact that the Royal Family are not miraculously fit and healthy compared to other rich people, provide evidence that prayer does nothing, and it even makes things worse to tell someone that a team is praying for them!
Merging doublepost
Berishman, I'm sorry for in any way making fun of Pastafarianism(sorry if I spelled it wrong.) Anybody who i could have offended that goes for yall too. Thanks, and I hope yall accept my apologies.
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No, I wouldn't say that satan was the reason for that. Could you give me a link or something to these test results.

When i was much younger I was lost in a store and scared to death. I prayed that I would find my parents. As soon as I finished praying I was very calm and no longer worried. Also of a sudden a thought popped in my head to go look in a section of the store and sure enough they were there!That prayer relayed a message to another part of your brain and said, hey, you forgot to look hereeee

in no means was it due to some supernatural being.

see my above post for links showing the stupidity of prayer.

Well Berishman, you have definitely given me a handful. It will take me a while to go through them and see for myself. I'll tell you as soon as I reach a conclusion.

but the thing is, when i was a christian, everything was terrible. i had a depression about 3 times, i was NEVER myself, and i was always closed in.

but when i became atheist, i was a much better person, i was open, polite, and i was actually myself. i could actually laugh a REAL laugh, unlike when i was a christian, i laughed a forced laugh.

So the transformation i guess was negative. i was not happy, i was always fake, and it wasn't real. i really don't know if i was walking with christ, hell, maybe from the start of my depressions i wasn't. but the thing is, how would you know if your walking with christ. i could have been walking with him the entire time, just no one knows.

This is WAR! Spiritual war! 24 to the SEVENN! Day, night, and in your dreams it is battlefield or a playground. Let me explain that in a moment.

When somebody plants a 'seed' in someone (by preaching the word, and they receive it), satan IMMEDIATELY will try to thwart that person's thoughts. satan (when i say satan i also mean his lil helpers - fallen angels) cannot read your mind, but can hear what you hear, and see what you see. satan will attempt to take away that seed.

Okay, so I take it you were a Christian, alright. A spiritual baby. (I take it you did not read the Bible?, If so, were you asking God - Your spiritual Father at that time, for his help in your struggles? If not, boom, there you go, sister) You must know once you choose to live as a Christian, or call yourself one, satan WILL attack you even more fiercely - let me explain. temptations become stronger, all evil will come at you full force, in various ways, in yours it was depression. We call that a evil spirit. Depression is a symptom of it, even if you don't want to call it an evil spirit you can call it something wrong inside you.

You've gotta attack the trunk of the tree. The root of the problem. Demons (fallen angels, evil spirits, i use the word interchangeably) have legal grounds to be in your life IF you let them -- through sin, lust, idolatry, unforgiveness (yourself or others), anger, whatever sort of evil thoughts, you name it.

Sooooo, you've got to deal with those root problems I just stated above, and as a Christian you are his anointed, saved by grace, soldier, and Child whom he loves dearly. Simply ask him for wisdom to discern where the problems occurring, strength to overcome, whatever you need to get rid of sin...

Okay - now -

TL;DR? The battlefield and playground. When you are approached with an evil thought (lust, anger, depression, anxiety, pride, list goes on...) it is up to YOU to decide where you put it. You gonna resist that thought and put it in the battlefield, and ask your Father who is in heaven to help you cleanse your mind from it? OR will you play with that thought and dwell on it -- we call it putting it in the playground.

ps. I put full trust in the Lord, read the scripture daily, and have no problem laughing with the (many) secular people, nor do I have a problem 'fitting in' [don't get that confused with spending my free time with peeps who love sin], in fact.. i've become much more sociable since I came to Christ. No more anxiety, no more false pride, no more depression, heck.. not even anger in the face of adversity. I fear no man on earth. I do not fear death. I speak with full sincerity, because I am being transformed by the Holy Spirit, and I know full and well that there IS a God, there IS spiritual warfare, because I've experienced it all.

P P S. berish, after seeing your posts right before im bout to click reply i must say something in response to you, and the old time free will debate.

the answer is YES, we have complete free will. however, God is already a lifetime ahead of you, and has anticipated everything you are going to do in your life. Whatever you do is according to his plan. Your logic is faulty when you underestimate the power of someone who created an entire universe, no problem. If you don't understand, it's cuse you aren't spiritually awakened, and you need to ask God for that.

Don't even pay any attention to =z28='s original post, this edited version is far more exciting:


This is WAR! Magical powers war! 24 to the SEVENN! Day, night, and in your dreams it is battlefield or a playground. Let me explain that in a moment.

When somebody plants a 'seed' in someone (by preaching the word, and they receive it), satan IMMEDIATELY will try to thwart that person's thoughts. voldemort (when i say satan i also mean his lil helpers - Death Eaters, and Dementors) cannot read your mind, but can hear what you hear, and see what you see. Voldemort will attempt to take away that seed.

Okay, so I take it you were a Gryffindor, alright. A spiritual baby. (I take it you did not read the Defense Against The Dark Arts testbook?, If so, were you asking Dumbledore - Your spiritual Father at that time, for his help in your struggles? If not, boom, there you go, sister) You must know once you choose to live as a Gryffindor, or call yourself one, Voldemort WILL attack you even more fiercely - let me explain. temptations become stronger, all evil will come at you full force, in various ways, in yours it was depression. We call that a evil spirit. Depression is a symptom of it, even if you don't want to call it an evil spirit you can call it something wrong inside you.

You've gotta attack the trunk of the tree. The root of the problem. Death Eaters (fallen angels, evil spirits, i use the word interchangeably) have legal grounds to be in your life IF you let them -- through sin, lust, idolatry, unforgiveness (yourself or others), anger, whatever sort of evil thoughts, you name it.

Sooooo, you've got to deal with those root problems I just stated above, and as a Gryffindor you are his anointed, saved by grace, soldier, and Child whom he loves dearly. Simply ask him for wisdom to discern where the problems occurring, strength to overcome, whatever you need to get rid of sin...

Okay - now -

TL;DR? The battlefield and playground. When you are approached with an evil thought (lust, anger, depression, anxiety, pride, list goes on...) it is up to YOU to decide where you put it. You gonna resist that thought and put it in the battlefield, and ask your Father (Dumbledore) who is in heaven to help you cleanse your mind from it? OR will you play with that thought and dwell on it -- we call it putting it in the playground.

ps. I put full trust in the Albus Dumbledore, read the Defense Against The Dark Arts daily, and have no problem laughing with the (many) secular people, nor do I have a problem 'fitting in' [don't get that confused with spending my free time with peeps who love sin], in fact.. i've become much more sociable since I came to Dumbledore. No more anxiety, no more false pride, no more depression, heck.. not even anger in the face of adversity. I fear no man on earth. I do not fear death. I speak with full sincerity, because I am being transformed by the Holy Spirit (Dumbledore's memory), and I know full and well that there IS a Dumbledore, there IS spiritual warfare, because I've experienced it all.

P P S. berish, I love you.

the answer is YES, we have complete free will. however, Dumbledore is already a lifetime ahead of you, and has anticipated everything you are going to do in your life. Whatever you do is according to his plan. Your logic is faulty when you underestimate the power of someone who created an entire universe, no problem. If you don't understand, it's cuse you aren't spiritually awakened, and you need to ask Dumbledore for that.

Yeah, Christianity. Makes perfect sense. Doesn't it.

Well, here's my two cents on something totally unrelated--I believe that predestination is totally absurd. Thoughts?

1. at the time, i wasn't selfish.
2. i did believe in god, and his kingdom, and the hole nine yards.
3. I did have faith.

Now, do tell why my prayer wasn't answered ?

i'm sorry if i sound rude, thats not my intentions, its just curiousity.

Patience, one of my prayers took