For once, I have to agree with you my pasta-loving friend :). Half of the "saints" that were canonized by the Catholic church were bigger hypocrites than the Pharisees. Since Constantine plagued the church with his heresies, the Catholic church has continued to follow many of his (and others who had big money at that time to bribe church leaders at that time) heresies. Now, I do believe some people who attend Catholic churches are truly followers of Christ. But as far as what you said about the Saints, they are no better than you or I. We are all equal under the blood. What they did in whatever situation (or not them, but God through them) we can do just the same if we have faith (though not us but Christ in us). We have direct access to the Father, according to Jesus, who is MUCH GREATER than any of the cannonized people of the Catholic church (because all who are sanctified by Jesus' blood are Saints). Even if they COULD do anything at all, why pray to them instead of the Father, when the Father is much greater in all aspects? But yeah. Enough on that for now. I'm not gonna debate this (the Catholic thing) anymore in this thread cause it's going off topic, but if you want to continue it PM me or something.

We do not pray TO Saints, we pray through Saints, TO God.

Then why not just to God himself? As I say a second time, so says Jesus, we have direct access to the Father through Jesus. At the least, to pray through a Saint (and again, many of which are nowhere near heaven right now) is useless, since he would listen to you just as much, though at the most it could be considered an insult to Jesus, considering he is supposed to be our way to the Father ("...no man cometh to the Father but by me.") Judge for yourself whether your right or wrong on that, but in light of scripture, and nothing else. If you can prove any doctrinal fact on the Bible, then all be it isn't heresy, but if it falls apart when you question it by scripture, then it's nothing but lies and heresy. And praying through any person but Jesus, when I test it by scripture that I know, falls completely apart. Heck, I may be wrong, but prove me otherwise by the Bible if so. And btw, instead of hi-jacking Bmans thread, I'll start a new one for this.

Ok, here's a few quotes from a debate me and StG were having. What are your thoughts (and as I said, in light of scripture.)

First of all, What's a heresay?
I don't quite get your discussion, but I never pray through saints. I don't know any. I just pray to God. Or I ask the angels to do stuff. I assume Saints are people whom have performed miracles in their time. There are a lot of people like that today.This woman healed a guy of HIV. I forgot her name though. Sorry for that. A prophet told me to do these miracles, you have to be pure. You have to do everything God tells you every moment of the day.

First of all, What's a heresay?
I don't quite get your discussion, but I never pray through saints. I don't know any. I just pray to God. Or I ask the angels to do stuff. I assume Saints are people whom have performed miracles in their time. There are a lot of people like that today.This woman healed a guy of HIV. I forgot her name though. Sorry for that. A prophet told me to do these miracles, you have to be pure. You have to do everything God tells you every moment of the day.

Heresy is any perversion put in the gospel message. And close. The Saints are those people that the Catholic church thought were all that in their time so they put a title before their name after they died, many of which truly sought after Jesus (though many of which were nothing but hypocrites). I know there are a bunch of people who work miracles, or not people, but God through people. Heck, I've seen one. My friend prayed for a guy and he was healed of epilepsy :). And all you have to do is be a follower of Jesus, be filled with the Holy Ghost, and have the faith to do them. Nobody is "pure", because we all mess up, yet still in the end of Mark Jesus said these things would follow us around; that people would know that we were believers because:

1.)We spake in new tongues
2.)We cast out Demons through Jesus name
3.)When we get a snake bite (poisonous), no harm would come.
4.)If we're poisoned in general, no harm will come to us.
5.)We will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover

Of course all those things require the three things I mentioned above. To be following Jesus, to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and have faith.

Very.very true Izzy. I'm not being sarcastic.

John 14:6,14 - "Jesus said to him: 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it.'"

Romans 8:34 - "Who is he that will condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us."

Hebrews 7:25 - "Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them."

The Bible doesn't allow for any mediator aside from Jesus.

Saints aren't mediators. We as Catholics pray through Saints due to certain Saints having been through the same trial we are currently placed in at the time, and therefore are better to relate to. We also believe that the Saints are alive in Heaven and constantly in prayer with God.

Also, Saints have to be dead in order to be canonized, and have to have multiple miracles be performed through them.

Saints aren't mediators. We as Catholics pray through Saints due to certain Saints having been through the same trial we are currently placed in at the time, and therefore are better to relate to. We also believe that the Saints are alive in Heaven and constantly in prayer with God.

Also, Saints have to be dead in order to be canonized, and have to have multiple miracles be performed through them.

So basically it's possible to have more in common with a saint than with God?

But surely God, being omnipotent, should have experienced EVERYTHING?

So basically it's possible to have more in common with a saint than with God?

But surely God, being omnipotent, should have experienced EVERYTHING?

Pretty sure this isn't a debate section. It's what we as Catholics believe. I am no theologian so I don't have every answer, you could always ask your pastor or priest, though (assuming you are Catholic too).

Saints aren't mediators. We as Catholics pray through Saints due to certain Saints having been through the same trial we are currently placed in at the time, and therefore are better to relate to. We also believe that the Saints are alive in Heaven and constantly in prayer with God.

Also, Saints have to be dead in order to be canonized, and have to have multiple miracles be performed through them.

revelations speaks about all those who overcome = saints. it also speaks about God reviving all the dead in his second coming, so we can conclude that once you die, you do not go straight to judgment, hell, or heaven. my guess is the only people in heaven besides God, and his angels, are the ones who God took up to heaven during their lives, for example Elijah.

Gnar we already spoke on this issue in pms, so you know what i feel bout that. I pray and glorify only God and Christ (well, atleast I try to.. sometimes I may slip into self-glorifying mode =P). I am against organized religion, man made = bad. God made = good :)

i just got done reading a load of catholic papers, quotes from sermons, and popes themselves. what they said is bottom line: they have the most power out of any religion, and they kind of revel in it... (i looked up sabbath issues, google it and you're sure to find what i found)