View Full Version : Societal Disaster Without God?


Madison
07-08-2008, 12:13 PM
I honestly thought it would be selfish of me if I didn't share this with you guys. It was an article published by the British Times a few years ago and a pretty interesting read. Enjoy, and please post your reactions/comments...if you'd like to. No pressure. :icon_wink


"Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side"

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social performance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly skeptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

.snOWFalls.
07-08-2008, 12:23 PM
so is she saying that America has high abortion and America is a christian country therefore christian cause lots of abortion.
How about America is a fat country and America is a christian country therfore christians cause fatness

Noj
07-08-2008, 12:37 PM
I think the correlation is found more in youthful rebellion, in which those who are forcibly told what they can and can't do are more likely to try to sneak around the strict rules--and to do so in an uneducated, reckless manner. So, you have Christian kids who reach the age in which their bodies start telling them to be sexually active, in which they are exposed to alcohol and drugs, yet they have no idea how to go about such things safely. At the same time, these kids are desperate to break free from the control of their parents and churches. They're uneducated, inexperienced time bombs.

A parallel I see is in overly protective parents with toddlers, who go out of their way to make sure everything is clean and germ-free, and as a result have children who are more susceptible to illness because their young immune systems haven't been properly exposed to germs...

.snOWFalls.
07-08-2008, 12:44 PM
we could go on forever about what is the cause of americas problem but i'm sure it's more than one, as easy as it would be to blame the christians.
In the end though, america is one of the greatest nations on earth. It's amazing what america has achieved.

Madison
07-08-2008, 12:46 PM
Noj, very interesting comment. :icon_yes:

so is she saying that America has high abortion and America is a christian country therefore christian cause lots of abortion.
How about America is a fat country and America is a christian country therfore christians cause fatness

Social indicators do not reflect causation. The only way to prove causation is through a controlled experiment.

But hey, if that's what you got from the article...so be it. :tongue:

.snOWFalls.
07-08-2008, 12:54 PM
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide
i see the word "cause" there

Berishman
07-08-2008, 12:55 PM
Haha.. anyone ever seen the great prayer experiment?


I still find it appalling that there are people out there that believe religion is the source of all morals.
Merging doublepost
i see the word "cause" there

Ever heard of 9/11?

Madison
07-08-2008, 01:01 PM
RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide

i see the word "cause" there

True, but I also see the word "can" there. :)

.snOWFalls.
07-08-2008, 01:04 PM
^ i was talking about christians, not muslims.
So am i the only one who sees the stupidity in blaming the bad stuff that happens on christians because it is a christian country?
It's like me saying africa is a black country so their blackness is contributing to all their problems.
if a christian is a bad person, it's not because they are christian. it's because they are a bad person

7evenUp
07-08-2008, 01:05 PM
religion = fail IMO

.snOWFalls.
07-08-2008, 01:06 PM
True, but I also see the word "can" there. :)

of course it's not scientifically impossible for a belief to cause damage. but i dont think thats her point


So, you have Christian kids who reach the age in which their bodies start telling them to be sexually active, in which they are exposed to alcohol and drugs, yet they have no idea how to go about such things safely. At the same time, these kids are desperate to break free from the control of their parents and churches. They're uneducated, inexperienced time bombs.


Yeah i've seen christian kids go off the rails. But change the word christian to atheist and you've just described 100 other kids i know

Berishman
07-08-2008, 01:12 PM
^ i was talking about christians, not muslims.
So am i the only one who sees the stupidity in blaming the bad stuff that happens on christians because it is a christian country?
It's like me saying africa is a black country so their blackness is contributing to all their problems.
if a christian is a bad person, it's not because they are christian. it's because they are a bad person

It has NOTHING to do with whether or not you are Christian. Religion in general causes people to do things they wouldn't otherwise.

The Muslims and Christians both believe in an invisible man living in the sky that tells them to do things.
Merging doublepost
of course it's not scientifically impossible for a belief to cause damage. but i dont think thats her point




Yeah i've seen christian kids go off the rails. But change the word christian to atheist and you've just described 100 other kids i know

I highly doubt you know 100 atheists. Even then, there are the atheists that have come to a logical conclusion that there can be no God, and then there are the atheists that are more along the lines of:

DudE, th4t lyk3 m4kes NOO sens. wh4teVs.. I dun car3.

.snOWFalls.
07-08-2008, 01:16 PM
ok, i dont want to get into a debate with you, i'm just here for fun and i can feel mean spiritedness coming out. All i'm saying is it sounds strange blaming christians for an increase in abortions when they are against abortion.

All we can do is to love those we dont understand and if they have any decency they'll eventually love us back. This is the biggest issue the world is facing. Lack of love.
I dont think finger pointing helps

Madison
07-08-2008, 01:17 PM
^ i was talking about christians, not muslims.
So am i the only one who sees the stupidity in blaming the bad stuff that happens on christians because it is a christian country?
It's like me saying africa is a black country so their blackness is contributing to all their problems.
if a christian is a bad person, it's not because they are christian. it's because they are a bad person

I agree.

In my opinion, the article isn't blaming Christianity for all of America's ills. It's simply shining light on the fact that there are other countries that have not adopted a specific religion that are not suffering more.

This was the point:


“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

ZeroSkaterFTW
07-08-2008, 03:06 PM
No matter who is Christian or not, there are still Christians without Christian-like morals. Some people just choose to do bad things and not care what anyone thinks. I do not believe religion is the cause, but I do see the correlation there. Noj brings up a good point and a point that I feel makes great sense. If you bring a kid up and are overly protective and do not let them dabble in things, they are more likely to get into things when they are older because they want to rebel, or just have more curiosity to try bad things. That theory can also happen to non religious families though. I believe kids, like me, learn from their mistakes and if you do not let them make these mistakes they will never learn what is right and what is wrong, and even if they do, they may not want to follow that.

Kowycz
07-08-2008, 06:58 PM
So in turn, God increases your chances of contracting gonorrhea and syphilis!

Neo IZK
07-09-2008, 01:00 AM
I agree.

In my opinion, the article isn't blaming Christianity for all of America's ills. It's simply shining light on the fact that there are other countries that have not adopted a specific religion that are not suffering more.

This was the point:

Wow, I can't believe all the people that seemed to completely miss that. Her point wasn't to say that religion causes all these problems. Her point was that a lot of people believe that if a country didn't believe in god they would have all these problems, but it appears to be the exact opposite.