Just some readings I wanted to share about two countries run by the 'Religion of Peace' - it's too bad we don't have any Muslims around here.

I'm only sharing images + articles here, if you want videos...such as a woman being stoned, or man being lashed, or a woman being thrown out of an apartment building window in Saudi Arabia...go to Liveleak.com and search for them (keywords: executions, torture, etc etc)

Iran Leads The World In Child Executions...
22-year old boy to be executed for drinking alcohol: Iranian judge "Jalil Jalili" , from the 72nd district in Tehran, sentenced Mohsen, a 22-year old man to death. Mohsen's crime is to drink alcohol for the 4th time. Jalili the prosecutor told ISNA that according to Iran's Shariaa law, if a person drinks alcohol two times, he can be executed after the third time. Mohsen had been arrested and flogged three times before for alcohol consumption and is now to be executed.

Some other things considered to be capital offenses in Iran are 'acts contrary to chastity'. Having sex out of wedlock. Or homosexual activity. The reason Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can confidently say while speaking at Columbia University in New York City that Iran has no homosexuals, is because Iran executes them.

Zhila Izadi, a thirteen year old girl was also sentenced to death by stoning by a local court in the western city of Marivan after her parents had reported her being pregnant from her elder brother aged 15. She was spared, as Iran was yielded to international outrage and pressure not to bludgeon this little girl to death by throwing rocks at her head.

On November 12th of 2004, a 14-year-old boy died after receiving 85 lashes for eating in public during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. According to unconfirmed reports, the metal cable used to flog him struck the back of his head, causing a brain hemorrhage.

On August 15th, 2004 a 16-year-old girl was hanged in a public square in Neka, Iran, a small industrial town by the Caspian Sea. Her death sentence was for crimes against chastity. Her name was Atefah Sahaaleh. The only evidence against Atefah was her own forced confession. Atefah railed against her judge in court for its unfairness, but this was her undoing. Judge Haji Rezai, who was also the local mullah, prosecutor and head of the city administration, personally obtained permission from Iran's Supreme Court to execute her, and put the noose around her neck himself before she was hoisted on a crane jib arm to her death. She was clinically retarded, and had the mental capacity of an 8 year old.

No other country on earth executes more children than Iran. Of the countries that do still use capital punishment, the offense usually has to be something like rape or murder. In Iran, having sex or drinking alcohol can get you lawfully convicted and hanged before a public crowd.

Human rights in Saudi Arabia not much better, ie: you lose limbs for simple crimes, age doesn't matter. One method (liveleak has a video) is tying rope to your arms and legs and the other end to SUV-type vehicles...you know what happens next.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia


http://cdn.liveleak.com/16/media16/2008/Jul/13/LiveLeak-dot-com-201247-539w.jpg

What do these two (Saudi) women have in common? They're about to be executed...for what? Who knows, probably being women...or driving. Beating your wife in Islam is permitted so long as the Husband see's fit.

http://www.thewordofgeorge.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/irangayexecution1.jpg

Christians no need to feel smug, you may just nod your head with this. You're probably asking why nooses are wrapped around these two boys necks? Well, they were caught being homosexuals and were executed.
Can't be as bad as being thrown in hell by Yahweh though?


And if you ever debate a Muslim, try asking this question:
VselUW4Aoxg

Apostasy (ie: leaving your faith) == execution


I was going to post the videos but they're probably too graphic to be posted here...

The one that makes me most angry is the hanging of the handicapped 16 y/o.

anyways, i can see why you hate religion. i noticed you mentioned my God in this, i wish you do not compare Christianity to Muslims...

these people are just as evil as the ones they judge and sentence to death.
God is perfect so he alone is the only rightful judge over life and death.

these people are just as evil as the ones they judge and sentence to death.

/sigh

anyways, i can see why you hate religion. i noticed you mentioned my God in this, i wish you do not compare Christianity to Muslims...

9/11 == crusades
suicide bombings == inquisition
Bin Laden == Joshua

Same morals different fairy tales

my god, i can not believe these poor people are being executed for ridiculus offences.

religion kills

The one that makes me most angry is the hanging of the handicapped 16 y/o.

anyways, i can see why you hate religion. i noticed you mentioned my God in this, i wish you do not compare Christianity to Muslims...

these people are just as evil as the ones they judge and sentence to death.
God is perfect so he alone is the only rightful judge over life and death.

1. isnt the jewish, christian, muslim god all the same god? I thought jews are something were first, and then Christians branched off of them as did Islam? probably because they didn't agree with something.. something about jesus not being the messiah

2. LOL, so being homosexual is just as bad as executing homosexuals for being gay homosexual? Or drinking alcohol is just as bad as killing someone for drinking alcohol? I'm sure you've drank before, should we kill you?

I know the whole "every sin is equal in gods book" rule but that statement was just ridiculous. Why not just be nice to everybody and let god handle the punishments?

Well I know if you're caught stealing they chop off your hands, and in Saudi Arabia if a man is caught being an adulterer, he has his penis chopped off by a cleaver.

Z28, Christians used to do the same stuff, the only difference now is that christianity is more prevalent in better developed countries. Don't act like this is solely islamic. You don't see islamic people beating their wives as they see fit in north america. It's not religious, it's cultural, but the definition of crime is religious. Because their crimes are really just your sins.

That's absolutely horrible. But it's a whole other place in the world with a whole other culture. Maybe it's accepted more there. And Skateyasha, I'm going to have to look up whether christians did that, because I seem to remember a famous part in the bible where people are about to stone a girl for commiting adultery, and Jesus says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" so it seems that christianity was one of the first religions to actually treat people with some respect even after they did bad things, but I really don't know for sure

That's absolutely horrible. But it's a whole other place in the world with a whole other culture. Maybe it's accepted more there. And Skateyasha, I'm going to have to look up whether christians did that, because I seem to remember a famous part in the bible where people are about to stone a girl for commiting adultery, and Jesus says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" so it seems that christianity was one of the first religions to actually treat people with some respect even after they did bad things, but I really don't know for sure

Yes real christians would never do such a thing. Unfortunately, the catholic church wasn't run by real christians...

Remember, the Saudis are our friends!
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/L/c/bush_abdullah_chaching.jpg

Remember, the Saudis are our friends!
http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/L/c/bush_abdullah_chaching.jpg


^ haha this reminds me, can anyone guess what the congress is trying to do to bring down gas prices right now? It's pretty pathetic...I'll let you guess first.

Trying to do offshore drilling.

Trying to do offshore drilling.

No, only Bush has signed his part of the lift to the banning. As far as I know congress hasn't. Last I remember they were trying to question the oil industry heads why the prices are so high or something along those lines.


Rev.

I believe theyre trying to lower the national speed limit to 55mph.:rolleyes:

and I thought ''Utopia'' was only a shop in my town that selled smoking parifinalia

hmm..the whole extreme punishment thing is two sided...theres the constitution, so that could never happen here unless we are dictated (which i hope we are not). but it is a good way to prevent misconduct, only probelm is, iran is the worst country in the world. (not just my opinion) but stoning sounds horrible...like terrible. and i am straight, but i still feel for the homosexuals...i mean if anyone on here is gay and is ok with saying it...do you choose to be gay, or do you believe you were just born that way? if the latter, then i believe that homosexuals should not be killed for their sexuality. and otherwise, it is a freedom of choice to be gay and they should be allowed to do what they want. hell, gays are helping against over-population

*shakes his head* There is no nation on this planet that is using a proper version of Sharia law. As for videos off of sites like liveleak, a lot of those vids are mislabelled. For example, the image of the 2 "saudi" women actually took place in Afghanistan. The women were executed for treason ie, they were known to be giving sexual favours to US soldiers and spying on the Taliban. Was it right? I don't know...I didn't have access to the inside info such as how they were caught and by whom but I do know that if I was involved in a war and caught someone betraying me, that was supposed to be on my side, I would be sorely tempted to put a round in their heads.
Many of the stoning videos that are circulating are regurgitated vids from the Islamic revolution in Iran that are renamed and given different geographic locations depending on who the US really, really hates this week.
Merging doublepost
The one that makes me most angry is the hanging of the handicapped 16 y/o.

anyways, i can see why you hate religion. i noticed you mentioned my God in this, i wish you do not compare Christianity to Muslims...

these people are just as evil as the ones they judge and sentence to death.
God is perfect so he alone is the only rightful judge over life and death.

Read leviticus to find out what the Christian god says that punishments should be for various crimes. Seriously...if God's word is eternal then Christians should be still practicing this kind of justice.
I would also add that it is patently unfair to define 1.5 billion people in the world by the actions of a few

^^Why is it Islamics always blame the news for the bad things they do.?

^^Why is it Islamics always blame the news for the bad things they do.?

What bad thing have I done that the media has reported? Why is it that if someone walks into a school in middle america and opens fire, no one mentions that he was a presbeterian but when a Pakistani man opens fire on a jewish center, he is immediately labelled an Inslamic terrorist despite the fact that he was a christian? This is one example of misinformation that the media has perpetrated and when it became common knowledge that he was a mentally ill christian, the story just died away.
The only copy of an unedited original news story that I could find
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3282925,00.html

An excerpt from his wikipedia biography
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naveed_Afzal_Haq
Christian baptism
Although Haq grew up as a Muslim, he later disavowed Islam, converting to Christianity. Haq studied the Bible at Word of the Faith Church in Kennewick and was baptized in December 2005, but stopped attending his Bible study group after a few months. The Bible study group leader, Albert Montelongo, said that Haq talked about having bipolar disorder and that he seemed depressed by the conflict with his family over his religious conversion. According to Montelongo, Haq converted because he perceived too much anger in Islam and wanted to find a new beginning in Christianity.

Another good example was the Oklahoma bombing...the dust hadn't settled and the press was spreading the message that it was an attack by Islamic radicals.

^^because he is doing it for his religious beliefs maybe.? And he is only killing Jews but the guy in the school is killing anyone in his way.

So christians hate jews and that's part of their religion?
Muslims are instructed to respect the people of the book ie Jews and Christians unless the Jew or Christian strikes the first blow against a muslim.
Same thing with the guy In jerusalem with the loader...he had no known affiliations with any Islamic groups, wasn't known to be religious and had been married to a Jew and yet when he pulled his suicide by cop, they overlooked that the guy had a court order against him to have his house destroyed. He was about to lose everything that he had worked for and he snapped. The press screamed terrorist and completely ignored the idea that he might have had some other reason for doing what he did.
The press is only as good as it's reporters and at the end of the day, they are subject to the same ignorance and prejudices that many people in the west are when it comes to Islam. They automatically report the absolute worst.
Websites like liveleak are even worse because like I said, there is usually no way for anyone to verify the facts of the stories unless they speak arabic, persian, pashtun or one of several other languages. I'm not saying that muslims never do anything wrong but IMHO the stories are often overinflated or sometimes outright lies.

^^Yes A lot of Christians do hate Jews and they do say its apart of their religion. IE Catholics.

So just because liveleak shows the same video with a different name means it never happend.?

^^Yes A lot of Christians do hate Jews and they do say its apart of their religion. IE Catholics.

then why wasn't he a christian terrorist?

So just because liveleak shows the same video with a different name means it never happend.?

It means that you only have part of the story. You can see what happened but you don't know the facts and without the facts, you can't understand what is happening in a 30 second clip or be able to put it into context. It's "look at the evil that muslims do" but fail to mention that it's the alewites in Syria that are doing this. The Alewites are a small group that call themselves muslims but 99% of muslims don't consider them as part of Islam.
To blame Hannafi muslims for what Salafis do or say is the same as blaming the Unitarians for what the Catholics do and say. Do you catch what I am saying?

^^They are terrorist.

Also can i ask you what you think about this.?
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oct/26/australia.marktran

actually I am familiar with that story and I agree that the men that committed those rapes deserved to be punished. As for the Sheikh, the BBC also ran an article about this story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6086374.stm
Note that muslims all over the place condemned what he said.
Now, by the same token, who is responsible for the speech of some redneck in the US when he calls for genocide against anyone that isn't white? Are all jews responsible for the comments of Rabbis that call for ethnic cleansing of Palestine? Who is responsible for the ramblings of Pat Robertson or George W Bush? Are you responsible for the mistreatment of aboriginals in Oz?

It is a given that the majority can't be held responsible for the actions of their worst representatives, but I'm still left to examine what it is about the religion in question which enables such heinous actions from some of its followers. From where I sit, dogma is a dangerous thing, as is blindly following the ancient writings of north African and middle eastern mystics. All scriptures are too open to interpretation and subject to abuse by those in powerful positions. While the vast majority of religious people are peaceful and harmlessly devoted to the ancient texts which suit them best, there are others who use the dogma of those within their immediate circle to incite hatred, prejudice, violence, and to think in ways which are against the interests of humankind.

The age of all the so-called religious texts of the world renders them contrary to the progress of collective intelligence. Lessons have been learned in the time since those texts were written which makes those texts obsolete. We humans are long overdue to absorb whatever valuable lessons may have been taught by those texts and to adapt them to the changing world in a forward-thinking manner rather than a backward, stagnant, glazed-over gaze at a primitive time which can no longer be effectively applied to the present.

The individual is responsible for his or her actions and his or her words, yet the stranglehold of religion over people's thoughts makes it subject to criticism as a whole. The different ways which it can be interpreted combined with its inherent disarming of critical thinking and ability to inspire the actions/thoughts/words of many make religion a deathly dangerous problem for all of humanity. Abandoning religion for the benefit of all would be the most enlightened and unifying gift to humanity that the world's population could make. Leave the fairy tales in the past where they belong and recognize that we all share life and now and love...

It is a given that the majority can't be held responsible for the actions of their worst representatives, but I'm still left to examine what it is about the religion in question which enables such heinous actions from some of its followers. From where I sit, dogma is a dangerous thing, as is blindly following the ancient writings of north African and middle eastern mystics. All scriptures are too open to interpretation and subject to abuse by those in powerful positions. While the vast majority of religious people are peaceful and harmlessly devoted to the ancient texts which suit them best, there are others who use the dogma of those within their immediate circle to incite hatred, prejudice, violence, and to think in ways which are against the interests of humankind.

The age of all the so-called religious texts of the world renders them contrary to the progress of collective intelligence. Lessons have been learned in the time since those texts were written which makes those texts obsolete. We humans are long overdue to absorb whatever valuable lessons may have been taught by those texts and to adapt them to the changing world in a forward-thinking manner rather than a backward, stagnant, glazed-over gaze at a primitive time which can no longer be effectively applied to the present.

The individual is responsible for his or her actions and his or her words, yet the stranglehold of religion over people's thoughts makes it subject to criticism as a whole. The different ways which it can be interpreted combined with its inherent disarming of critical thinking and ability to inspire the actions/thoughts/words of many make religion a deathly dangerous problem for all of humanity. Abandoning religion for the benefit of all would be the most enlightened and unifying gift to humanity that the world's population could make. Leave the fairy tales in the past where they belong and recognize that we all share life and now and love...

and you think that if these texts were to disapear tomorrow that individuals that are inclined towards violence wouldn't still run out and do it?
If I walked into a masjid and suggested that we all strap on bombs and head to the nearest cafe to die for Allah, I can guarantee that I wouldn't make it back out the door without a police escort.
Have you ever looked at the makeup of most of these "terror cells"? There is usually one or two older guys that are the ringleaders and everyone else is usually under 25. The ringleaders usually orchestrate the violence while the younger members actually carry it out. Kids are generally naturally idealistic and easily radicalized because they see the world as black and white. This is why the vast majority of environmental protesters are under 30 and why most foot soldiers are young too...they are easily led.
Take away religion and these puppet masters would find some other slight to direct their anger at. I have said it several times on the board that I moderate on that if an Imam is advocating suicide bombing then he should strap one on and lead by example rather then sending others to do the dirty work.
Islam forbids the targetting of civilians in war so those that do carry out these kind of attacks, imho, unless they truly believe that they are doing the will of Allah and aren't acting out of an extreme depression or lust for revenge, are acting outside of Islam and will pay for it on judgement day.

and you think that if these texts were to disapear tomorrow that individuals that are inclined towards violence wouldn't still run out and do it?

What I see is religion fueling the fire of those inclined toward violence by offering them salvation in the "afterlife" and dehumanizing the opposition (they're not "true believers" anyway). I see the texts as divisive, as sources of prejudice, as no longer relevant to the present, and as completely backward-thinking and opposed to progress.


If I walked into a masjid and suggested that we all strap on bombs and head to the nearest cafe to die for Allah, I can guarantee that I wouldn't make it back out the door without a police escort.
Have you ever looked at the makeup of most of these "terror cells"? There is usually one or two older guys that are the ringleaders and everyone else is usually under 25. The ringleaders usually orchestrate the violence while the younger members actually carry it out. Kids are generally naturally idealistic and easily radicalized because they see the world as black and white. This is why the vast majority of environmental protesters are under 30 and why most foot soldiers are young too...they are easily led.
Take away religion and these puppet masters would find some other slight to direct their anger at. I have said it several times on the board that I moderate on that if an Imam is advocating suicide bombing then he should strap one on and lead by example rather then sending others to do the dirty work.

You'll find no disagreement from me with any of the above. I think you'll find no greater motivator for the naive than religion. Greed is a distant second. I am fully aware that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people. I take issue with every religion, not just yours.


Islam forbids the targetting of civilians in war so those that do carry out these kind of attacks, imho, unless they truly believe that they are doing the will of Allah and aren't acting out of an extreme depression or lust for revenge, are acting outside of Islam and will pay for it on judgement day.

Are you saying that someone who "truly believe[s] that they are doing the will of Allah" by carrying out a suicide attack on civilians will not pay for it on judgment day? Does genuinely believing one is doing Allah's will, despite evidence to the contrary, make it so? Scary.

Whoa, since when did most Christians hate Jews and say its part of their religion? Thats very unchristian like and I think you have misunderstood something. A true Christian would not hate Jews. End of story.

and I thought ''Utopia'' was only a shop in my town that selled smoking parifinalia
I thought Utopia was in :icon_weir.

Whoa, since when did most Christians hate Jews and say its part of their religion? Thats very unchristian like and I think you have misunderstood something. A true Christian would not hate Jews. End of story.

No what i'm saying is that there are alot of Christians that do blame jews for killing Jesus but not all Christians.

So christians hate jews and that's part of their religion?
Muslims are instructed to respect the people of the book

Surah 5:51
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Now, by the same token, who is responsible for the speech of some redneck in the US when he calls for genocide against anyone that isn't white? Are all jews responsible for the comments of Rabbis that call for ethnic cleansing of Palestine? Who is responsible for the ramblings of Pat Robertson or George W Bush? Are you responsible for the mistreatment of aboriginals in Oz?

I'm just surprised that someone who can see through the obvious absurdities of George Bush or Pat Robertson can't see through them with Islam

and you think that if these texts were to disapear tomorrow that individuals that are inclined towards violence wouldn't still run out and do it?

I can't see suicide bombers or the 19 hijackers flying planes into buildings do it for nothing, you honestly cant tell that most of these people werent motivated by religion?

If I walked into a masjid and suggested that we all strap on bombs and head to the nearest cafe to die for Allah, I can guarantee that I wouldn't make it back out the door without a police escort.

And why should you? You're threatening lives, that's different than freedom of speech.

Take away religion and these puppet masters would find some other slight to direct their anger at. I have said it several times on the board that I moderate on that if an Imam is advocating suicide bombing then he should strap one on and lead by example rather then sending others to do the dirty work.

Perfect! Why don't we hear about this in the Muslim world by the most vocal speakers? Where are the outspoken moderates?

I would raise my respect for Muslims ten-fold if I heard this enough times.

What I see is religion fueling the fire of those inclined toward violence by offering them salvation in the "afterlife" and dehumanizing the opposition (they're not "true believers" anyway). I see the texts as divisive, as sources of prejudice, as no longer relevant to the present, and as completely backward-thinking and opposed to progress.

and yet Islam was light years ahead of Europe until the crusades. The texts can be used to be divisive, you are right, but so can any social text. We see the US constitution being used today to define "us" and "them". All it takes is an identifiable trait to define "them" and you have it made. It's called tribalism and it's a basic part of the human psyche and when manipulated by charismatic people at the right time it can be tapped and turned into a very dark force.



I take issue with every religion, not just yours.

fair enough



Are you saying that someone who "truly believe[s] that they are doing the will of Allah" by carrying out a suicide attack on civilians will not pay for it on judgment day? Does genuinely believing one is doing Allah's will, despite evidence to the contrary, make it so? Scary.

I have said it before that Islam is based on understanding and intent. A person is absolved from sin if they did not have the mental capacity to understand that what they were doing was wrong. If someone is of normal intelligence but has never been told that suicide bombing is wrong then they aren't accountable of that sin but since muslims are commanded to learn as much as they can about Islam, to study the Qu'ran and the hadeeths, it is questionable. In matters such as this we simply say that Allah is the best judge and refrain from making the call to say if they are Shaheed or not.
Merging doublepost
Surah 5:51
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

very good! You can use a search engine. I will refer you to this article
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016226



I can't see suicide bombers or the 19 hijackers flying planes into buildings do it for nothing, you honestly cant tell that most of these people werent motivated by religion?

They were motivated by the US support for Israel and it's continued, illegal occupation of Palestine. Nobody insisted that the French resistance in WW2 was about religion. Many of those people carried out suicide missions as well.



And why should you? You're threatening lives, that's different than freedom of speech.

That was my point. If violence was an endemic part of Islam, the result should be much different wouldn't you agree?



Perfect! Why don't we hear about this in the Muslim world by the most vocal speakers? Where are the outspoken moderates?

I would raise my respect for Muslims ten-fold if I heard this enough times.

There are lots of us around but we don't get the front page or the CNN sound byte. The media usually likes to put radicals in such positions. Did you know that there were thousands of muslims that march annually to protest terrorism. Last years march in NYC was attended by some people that I know personally. One lady had a woman try to grab her Hijab off and a couple of others were pelted with food but that never made it into the media outside of a couple of online Islamic mags.
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=38&sub_cat_id=1490
Merging doublepost
No what i'm saying is that there are alot of Christians that do blame jews for killing Jesus but not all Christians.

actually that's a misnomer...you see the jews suggested it but it was the romans that actually did it

Most of your arguments take the form of attempting to deflect the criticism of your chosen faith by drawing comparison to similar wrongdoing at the hands of others. Oh, the US Constitution can be divisive too! The military can influence the young to kill too! The Christians killed during the Crusades too! See? They do it too! It's not a valid argument. Just because others do the same wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.

So-called holy books such as the Bible and Qu'ran are said by their followers to be the infallible words of a superhuman creator. Yet, the language is so dated that these "infallible words" don't lend themselves to unanimous interpretation. The problem exists in the book before it is ever perverted at all, because the words are confusing and contradict themselves. The scriptures which religions hold most important are problematic, because all it takes is a follower to read into the text whatever dark motive his or her sad little mental capacity desires and presto! A psycho who thinks "God" said so, so it's cool. To not take responsibility for this failure of the scriptures to be easily understood is unacceptable. The so-called holy books, religion's most important documents, are morally ambiguous and subject to misinterpretation. By not stating everything clearly while claiming to be the last word about everything, they precipitate violence and wrongdoing in their name.

Most of your arguments take the form of attempting to deflect the criticism of your chosen faith by drawing comparison to similar wrongdoing at the hands of others. Oh, the US Constitution can be divisive too! The military can influence the young to kill too! The Christians killed during the Crusades too! See? They do it too! It's not a valid argument. Just because others do the same wrong doesn't make it any less wrong.

So-called holy books such as the Bible and Qu'ran are said by their followers to be the infallible words of a superhuman creator. Yet, the language is so dated that these "infallible words" don't lend themselves to unanimous interpretation. The problem exists in the book before it is ever perverted at all, because the words are confusing and contradict themselves. The scriptures which religions hold most important are problematic, because all it takes is a follower to read into the text whatever dark motive his or her sad little mental capacity desires and presto! A psycho who thinks "God" said so, so it's cool. To not take responsibility for this failure of the scriptures to be easily understood is unacceptable. The so-called holy books, religion's most important documents, are morally ambiguous and subject to misinterpretation. By not stating everything clearly while claiming to be the last word about everything, they precipitate violence and wrongdoing in their name.

I would have to disagree. I don't think that my arguments are as you describe. I am merely pointing out that religion isn't the problem so much as tribalism is.
Your argument about intent undermines the entire concept of criminal law which is built upon the concept of criminal intent. If an individual is unable to form criminal intent or to understand the rammifications of their actions they are entitled to a defence of diminished capacity and get a lesser conviction or to be found not guilty.

You've missed the greater point, Teoma. I'm not saying mentally retarded people should be tried the same as normal people.

I'm saying that religion bears responsibility for the language of their most important documents. The language of the Bible and the language of the Qu'ran are not clear enough to prevent misuse. In addition, those scriptures are very much of their time, and they haven't aged well. I think religion is the problem long before tribalism exacerbates it.

I thought Utopia was in :icon_weir.
Ok I would like to clarify, that message was supposed to say "I thought Utopia was in Africa :icon_weir".

You've missed the greater point, Teoma. I'm not saying mentally retarded people should be tried the same as normal people.

I'm saying that religion bears responsibility for the language of their most important documents. The language of the Bible and the language of the Qu'ran are not clear enough to prevent misuse. In addition, those scriptures are very much of their time, and they haven't aged well. I think religion is the problem long before tribalism exacerbates it.


Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one because IMHO it's more like laziness is what is the problem. People are willing to be told what something means rather then exploring it for themselves. Many "born" muslims have never even read the Qu'ran from cover to cover never mind ponder what it means. I have found the same thing with many christians and yet when asked they identify themselves as muslims and christians. It's more about being part of the tribe then it is knowledge or understanding.

Islam ceases to amaze me, from what I have read this religion seems to be completely absurd, and I can't understand why anyway would want to strictly follow the rules that are in place.

stoning a mentally ill girl is savagery, i don't care what religion says.

'nuff said.

Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one because IMHO it's more like laziness is what is the problem. People are willing to be told what something means rather then exploring it for themselves. Many "born" muslims have never even read the Qu'ran from cover to cover never mind ponder what it means. I have found the same thing with many christians and yet when asked they identify themselves as muslims and christians. It's more about being part of the tribe then it is knowledge or understanding.

I'm always willing to agree to disagree, so that's cool.

I will add that the power of the tribe originates from the scriptures, regardless if the followers have read them or not. A few "infallible" verses from the "infallible" book, taken out of context, and all the motivation required for a little death and dismemberment is at hand. The religions in question hold their so-called holy books as perfect, but if that were the case the books should elicit a perfect response. The very existence of the tribes is evidence that the scriptures are not written in a manner which inspires a unified response/interpretation.

Who is more lazy? The average Joe who fails to pour over every word in the scriptures, or the authors who failed to boil down this long-winded nonsense into something comprehensible? Surely the book representing an all-powerful creator would take into account the intelligence and attention spans of all its living creations and tailor an all-inclusive message...

I'm always willing to agree to disagree, so that's cool.

I will add that the power of the tribe originates from the scriptures, regardless if the followers have read them or not. A few "infallible" verses from the "infallible" book, taken out of context, and all the motivation required for a little death and dismemberment is at hand. The religions in question hold their so-called holy books as perfect, but if that were the case the books should elicit a perfect response. The very existence of the tribes is evidence that the scriptures are not written in a manner which inspires a unified response/interpretation.

Who is more lazy? The average Joe who fails to pour over every word in the scriptures, or the authors who failed to boil down this long-winded nonsense into something comprehensible? Surely the book representing an all-powerful creator would take into account the intelligence and attention spans of all its living creations and tailor an all-inclusive message...

Maybe it's not meant to be understood by everyone. How people chose to understand it shows what kind of a person they are. If God had wanted a universal single comprehensible message to be heard by all he would speak himself. That's not the point of the Bible though... The Bible is there to teach those that want to learn, that have it in their heart to want to really learn about God. And those that are looking for that single answer are the ones who will best understand what the Bible is saying. Even if God doesn't exist you have to look at it from an Author's perspective, on how they would write books such as these.

Maybe it's not meant to be understood by everyone. How people chose to understand it shows what kind of a person they are. If God had wanted a universal single comprehensible message to be heard by all he would speak himself. That's not the point of the Bible though... The Bible is there to teach those that want to learn, that have it in their heart to want to really learn about God. And those that are looking for that single answer are the ones who will best understand what the Bible is saying.

How would such an intent jibe with the rest of this God's supposed creation? Nature has a single set of rules, unbendable and unforgiving, spelled out in universal terms. The consequences of breaking nature's rules teach without language, on a global scale. These so-called holy books could not possibly be the product of the same creator, for that creator would have the foresight to speak to everyone, not to divide but to unite. The intent of that creator would be so much more flawless, and would speak with the voice of one capable of the vast complexity of nature. That creator would not address one specific group of people in one specific time frame, but would continually teach in a voice which reaches all of humanity as nature does.

If there is a God, I feel God's gift to humanity is cooperation through moral intelligence. God's gift is the ability to reason, to empathize with each other and help each other get along. Ultimately, if there is a God, the intellect God has given us points toward global unity and peace which can only be found in holding most important the positive values which all good people share--and in abandoning whatever differences we may have. This can only happen by abandoning the trivial differences found in traditions of worship.

I would have to disagree. I don't think that my arguments are as you describe. I am merely pointing out that religion isn't the problem so much as tribalism is.

Religion is the motivating factor in several dangers of the world, for example, suicide bombers...

very good! You can use a search engine. I will refer you to this article
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016226

From the article you just posted:

Muslims cannot socialize with them as long as they respect the limits of Islam - for example, that no alcohol is served. But it does mean that Muslims should seek personal advice and, on a national level, allies, from fellow Muslims.

very good!

Religion is the motivating factor in several dangers of the world, for example, suicide bombers...

So is money and nationalism. And it's not all religions only some.

So is money and nationalism. And it's not all religions only some.

Money is a motivating factor to suicide bombing?

Money is a motivating factor to suicide bombing?
It's all about the advertising man. When you blow yourself up and make the news while wearing a brand new pair of Nike Airforce 1's, the cash just pours in.