More Islamic knowledge...

One of the most popular Islamic Q&A websites on the internet, a highly-respected website amongst Muslims and receives 10x more page views than SkatersCafe is http://www.islam-qa.com

I decided to search some questions on there and you won't believe the answers. Not only does the website answer the question from an honest Qu'ranic point of view, it also quotes several of the most respected scholars and points out several Qu'ranic verses to prove their validity.

Check out some of the Q&A's, you'll be shocked:

Keeping a dog as a pet is FORBIDDEN
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/976

Polygamy (multiple wives) is permitted
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/14022

A girl tells how her parents are FORCING her to stay in University, she wants to leave because of 'mixed classes'
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/113431

Pedophilia is allowed (And I ABSOLUTELY Did Not Take It Out of Context)
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/1493
"In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence."

Chess (yes, the board game) is forbidden, and I quote verbatim:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/14095/chess
"The evil consequences of chess are greater than the evil consequences of dice. Everything that points to the prohibition of dice points to the prohibition of chess even more so… "

Husband forcing his wife to have sex, YOU WONT BELIEVE WHAT THEY SAY
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597
"The woman does not have the right to refuse her husband, rather she must respond to his request every time he calls her, so long as that will not harm her or keep her from doing an obligatory duty."

Sex Education is CORRUPT!
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/113970

A man proposes to a woman but admits first-hand he is a homosexual, and you wont believe what the dumbass Imam or whoever gives him the answer says
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/101169
"Homosexuality is a severe illness and a grave calamity" -- Ironically, homosexuality is the severe illness in this case, but not the religion...unbelievable

Can a woman hit her Husband?
Apparently, not, but a man can hit her.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2083/lightly%20beat%20a%20woman
"The husband is in charge of his wife, and she has to obey him and not go out without his permission, otherwise the stability of the family will be destroyed. The family should have just one leader to steer its course, and that leader is the one who spends on the family and protects it. The husband is physically stronger and is more wise than the wife."


And remember that forum I was banned on? They have an anonymous Q&A as well, it's sad:

Is McDonals haram (forbidden)
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169898
"Muslims should never eat from MCDonalds.....because it is on the Boycott Israel Terrorist state."

This guys is confused and asks whether his mother should choose her marriage, or choose Islam and divorce her non-Islamic father. The idiots advise him that "Islam must be chosen, omg think of hellfire!"
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158569

Girl avoid her former friends birthday party because he's a guy, what her excuse, "Sorry, I'm a Muslim now"
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=166610

This guy is gay and has known is since childhood, look at what these idiots tell him
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158302
"Homosexuality is not normal. It's a psychological disorder, rather a disease which can be healed through proper Islamic guidance."
^ WOW, that quote is equivalent to a 600lbs man trying to teach you about good nutrition.

Do people honestly think that a God would want this? These are his requests? Is anyone thinking of becoming a Muslim now?

wow, that's really weird. Especially the first bunch. good find +rep.

"because it is on the Boycott Israel Terrorist state."

What does that mean "Terrorist state, and what boycott?

Very nice find my friend. Reps.

You know, I hate to say this, but you can definitly tell that the bases of Islam was written by a very horney man, that couldn't get any action, sucked at chess, got bit by a dog, and got his ass handed to him by a woman!!
Every one of those I read, reminded me of someone writting it, just so it wouldn't be ''allowed'' to happen again to him!

Omg being a muslim rocks!



/facepalm

I'm pretty sure if these are the guidelines from God. No one with a healthy mind is going to respect God and accept him as THE LORD. In fact if I could I would reincarnate God as a homosexual chess player who has a dog and can't stop eating at McDonald's and talking freely to the opposite sex. He would also be a woman with a husband fond of beating. Oh he would also be stuck forever in an Islamic town and can't be killed. But is cursed to feel the pain every time someone is stoning him to death. etc etc

But really now not allowed to talk freely to opposite sex is retarded. If dogs can sniff each others behinds I would like to do so too damn it.

I'm pretty sure if these are the guidelines from God. No one with a healthy mind is going to respect God and accept him as THE LORD. In fact if I could I would reincarnate God as a homosexual chess player who has a dog and can't stop eating at McDonald's and talking freely to the opposite sex. He would also be a woman with a husband fond of beating. Oh he would also be stuck forever in an Islamic town and can't be killed. But is cursed to feel the pain every time someone is stoning him to death. etc etc

But really now not allowed to talk freely to opposite sex is retarded. If dogs can sniff each others behinds I would like to do so too damn it.

You can take my word for it. I do, and it's good.

You know, I hate to say this, but you can definitly tell that the bases of Islam was written was a very horney man, that couldn't get any action, sucked at chess, got bit by a dog, and got his ass handed to him by a woman!!

{rf) :icon_pelv Oh man, freaking awesome post!! Thanks for the good laugh!! +Rep.



Rev.

hey razz, man i have a question. NO DISRESPECT but why are you going around questioning the religons of people? Trying to make people not believe? Whats with this need to destory random religons, just cause you dont believe?

again man, no disrespect :icon_hug:

hey razz, man i have a question. NO DISRESPECT but why are you going around questioning the religons of people? Trying to make people not believe? Whats with this need to destory random religons, just cause you dont believe?

again man, no disrespect :icon_hug:
No different than when a Christian preaches to someone on the street or a Jehovah's Witness goes door to door.

hey razz, man i have a question. NO DISRESPECT but why are you going around questioning the religons of people? Trying to make people not believe? Whats with this need to destory random religons, just cause you dont believe?

again man, no disrespect :icon_hug:

mHh0NdR5Jh0

In case you missed it, it's because religion is a poison. 9/11, Israeli/Palestine, political corruption == religion is responsible.

You know, I hate to say this, but you can definitly tell that the bases of Islam was written by a very horney man, that couldn't get any action, sucked at chess, got bit by a dog, and got his ass handed to him by a woman!!
Every one of those I read, reminded me of someone writting it, just so it wouldn't be ''allowed'' to happen again to him!

hahaahhahahahahhahahhahahah

there you go, that is how it all started

No different than when a Christian preaches to someone on the street or a Jehovah's Witness goes door to door.

It's a little different.

I'm not trying to force my non-belief on anyone else (unlike them). The only thing I'm fighting for is for the fairy-tale believers to keep their religion to themselves, and I'll keep my opinions to myself.

However, they don't like to keep it to themselves and as a result it's going to be questioned; and I could care less how offended they become. Heck, if I do offend them then I know I'm doing my job

^^
alright, bro i got it, you're questioning religon cause people keep talking to you about it, and you dont want to talk about it, right?

fair enough lol

It's a little different.

I'm not trying to force my non-belief on anyone else (unlike them). The only thing I'm fighting for is for the fairy-tale believers to keep their religion to themselves, and I'll keep my opinions to myself.

However, they don't like to keep it to themselves and as a result it's going to be questioned; and I could care less how offended they become. Heck, if I do offend them then I know I'm doing my job

Actually no it's not. While very few are trying to force it on you, most are simply trying to share what they think is beneficial with you. If they had millions of dollars, and tried sharing that with you would you want them to keep it to themselves and stay away from you? Well in my mind if heaven or eternal life or what have you were actually somehow real, I would rather have that than a million dollars. Also, did those people on that message board come to you trying to tell you how their religion was right? No they did not, you took the initiative not them. You're trying to push your belief on them when they aren't trying to do anything to you. Sure you could say, well there's people out there that have tried pushing their religion on you in the past. So then take it up with them, otherwise you're being stupid by generalizing everyone into one. And you may as well be saying all Americans are fat, or all Middle Easterners are terrorists. Razz you really are a lot more ignorant than you like to believe... I don't even really believe in God or anything, yet I still see how stupid you're acting.

Want to prove to you that you're wrong with a single question?

"Is it right for organizations to fight off pedophiles who simply want nothing more than to look at child pornography but not actually have sex with a child?"

^ Answer that, and then tell me if you agree that the trading of child pornography law should be illegal...

Want to prove to you that you're wrong with a single question?

"Is it right for organizations to fight off pedophiles who simply want nothing more than to look at child pornography but not actually have sex with a child?"

^ Answer that, and then tell me if you agree that the trading of child pornography law should be illegal...

Not sure if you're directing that at me, because that has nothing to do with the point that I was making. But to answer it anyway, it depends. I think actual child pornography should be illegal, because in order to get it, it puts children in a bad position. Putting a child in that kind of position should be illegal. Now, digitally created child pornography (such as caroon type stuff or making an older person appearing younger kind of thing) I don't think should be illegal because it doesn't put a child in any sort of a bad situation.

Hey it's not cool to make fun of a religon
or at least where they can read it. Otherwise that's really werid. Talk about strick. I'm going to go to a contry where most people are islmic and play chess with a dog.

This was my response in the other thread because it was "locked"

actually, the courts have ruled against these idiots and charges have been laid against several westborough baptist church members. Are you saying that Canada was wrong to deport Ernst Zundel for "exercising his right to freedom of speech?

What charges have been laid on them? They are still out and preaching are they not? And Ernst Zundel, according to wikipedia: "was jailed several times in Canada for publishing literature which "is likely to incite hatred against an identifiable group" and for being a threat to national security, in the United States for overstaying his visa, and in Germany for charges of "inciting racial hatred."

Did you forget to include that in your post?

that invitation was subject to you following the rules of the forum

A rule should as "No criticizing Islam or the prophet or God" is simply a narrow-minded way to run a forum. I don't see the logic in running a forum on a particular subject where criticism of a belief gets you banned.

OK...this is another common one that I get tired of dealing with. Do trolls all get their material from the same sources? The average life expectancy back then was 25 years. In a society like that does it not make sense to start breeding at the earliest possibility? The tradition was that a girl got married as soon as she menstruated and that a man got married as soon as he had the means to support a family. This wasn't an anomaly in the arabic world. It was the practice of virtually every culture of the day including the christians and the jews and was essential for the survival of the races.
He also married a couple of women that were much older then him. Does this make him a cougar hunter?

The reason this argument comes up is because moronic Muslims, like yourself, believe that excuses can be brought up for anything; if it was easy to defend then why get so hostile each time it's brought up.

The fact of the matter is you're wrong. Back then during societies being a pedophile was not normal, maybe in the Arab world, but in general society it was not. If anything, the earliest a women was married was at puberty.

Did Aisha hit puberty at 6 years old when he was engaged to her? Are you telling me that it was right for a 50+ year old man to betroth a 6 year old little girl, who doesnt even know what to choose?

Muhammed is a pedophile and there is no way to dance around this issue..

and previous to this, a woman's word meant absolutely nothing. Women didn't gain this right in western societies until the late 19th century

Wait....so because a woman's word meant nothing anywhere else then it was OK for your God to issue the same thing? That's equivalent to murdering someone and then saying "Yeah, but Hitler murdered too!"

How could you say your God created both men & women with equal rights but just admit that rights werent fully established? Even in today's Muslim households, who runs the house?

Tell me, this equal:


Is it permissible for a man to force his wife or slave to have intercourse if she refuses?.

Praise be to Allaah.
The woman does not have the right to refuse her husband, rather she must respond to his request every time he calls her, so long as that will not harm her or keep her from doing an obligatory duty.
Source: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597

In a world where there were more women then men, this makes perfect sense. Today, it's not as applicable since few of us have the means to support 4 women Islamically. You see the conditions that apply there is that a man has to be able to treat each of his wives the same in support and affection. At the same time, the first wife has to approve of the second and the 2 wives have to approve of the third. A man can't just go out and hook up with just any woman.

So in other words, you do support Polygamy and the excuse is because more women exist than men?

and you have no proof that you are right either

Again, the onus is on you.

good, you caught that one...maybe you do have more then a double digit IQ

Well, apparently only an idiot with a single digit IQ wouldn't have been able to foresee my next question, if the Quran hadnt existed...would you be immoral?

Would you be too dumb to notice that killing was wrong? Or that sleeping with children is against God? (hypothetically speaking, both these things are debating when speaking of Islam, when pedophiles such as Muhammed exist).

perhaps, but how does that affect you and why are you so concerned with how I choose to spend my time? If I am right and you are wrong then who is the idiot. We are both just working on subjective hunches to say that we think that we are correct.

That's sort of like saying: "Yes, I believe in Santa Clause and if you dont believe in him you get tortured in hell by elves, so if I'm right and you're wrong then you're dumb"

The main difference between you and I is which belief makes more sense. You believe in a religion that supports hitting your wife, a pedophile as a prophet, and a ban on eating pork or having a dog; and I believe that until there is proof, there is no reason to believe that.

You are speaking of surah 4 ayat 34 where it says that a man should beat his wife and yes, on the surface it would seem so but for the Sunni muslims, the hadeeths come into play where a muslim is forbidden from striking another muslim in anger(man or woman). The face is not to be struck nor is a blow to cause pain, leave a bruise or cause bleeding and you must never strike twice. The hadeeths and early scholars opinions liken this beating to being hit once with a miswak. For a muslim woman this has strong meaning because the next step is for the husband to ask for a divorce.
BTW before you ask, a woman can demand a divorce too in Islam.

You're not answering my question, where does the "last straw" argument take place? In other words, how is lightly tapping someone with a twig going to change anything?

And a woman demanding a divorce means nothing...a man can as well. I'm asking, why couldnt a woman hit a man with a twig when necessary?

as a matter of fact, I have absolutely no problem with that

So if someone lives in an Islamic country, and happens to say "Yes, well, I not longer want to be a Muslim...I feel I need more time" then you'd be one of the ones to support their execution?

What if this was your mother? Or child? Seems kind of idiotic to punish someone for simply REJECTING a faith.


actually, you need to get your facts straight. The Sephardic jews lived peacefully in Palestine for centuries under muslim rule. There have been several books and a couple of films made from the diaries of Sephardic Jews that lived in Palestine before the zionist movement and the arrival of the ashkenazi jews.
The Ashkenazi jews arrived with the idea that the land belonged to them even though they weren't ethnically related to the historical jews that lived there in the time of Christ(pbuh) Groups like Haganah, the stern gang, irgun and others were terrorists and were responsible for several massacres of arabs as well as attacks against the british soldiers that controlled the area.
They envisioned having the biblical Israel that included parts of Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon but they only got a fraction of what they demanded. Subsequently, despite having signed the 4th geneva convention which forbids the expansion of borders through war, they have mounted campaign after campaign to try to expand their territory.
Do you know what inspired the first suicide bomber? During the first intafada, there was what was known as the campaign of broken bones. During the early days of the first intifada there were a lot of protests. You see, what sparked it all was a jewish settler was stabbed to death in Gaza. A few days later an Israeli army truck ran over 4 Palestinians killing them all. Shortly after that, the Israeli army raided a hospital and beat doctors, nurses and patients. The Israelis were brutal during this time and would storm houses, beating women and children. Of course there were protests at this kind of treatment, mainly people with rocks throwing them at the Israeli tanks(talk about David and Goliath huh?)
Yitzak Rabin instituted a policy where any protesters that were captured would have their legs or arms broken. This led to the desperation that would inspire the first suicide bomber and the Palestinians finally had a weapon that scared the Israelis. They could no longer sit smugly in cafes in Tel Aviv while their army ran amok in the occupied territories.
I do not approve of the use of suicide bombers but I do understand why people could be that desperate to do that. As bad as the troubles were in northern Ireland, the british never resorted to tactics like these, nor has any other western government.
I recomend that you do a google search for a movie called occupation 101. I can't post URL's here yet but watch the one on google video. http: //video.google. com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589&q=occupation+101&ei=D_IxSJy5EoOKqgOv8oShCQ
Remove the spaces in front of http and right after google. and paste it in your browser window

In times of war people lose land, this is inevitable...but here's a question for you, when the Jews began to come in during the British resolution, what were the Muslims doing? The reason they lost so much land to begin with is because they attacked Israel.

I've been critical of both, but to assume one is innocent and the other completely guilty is idiotic.

why are you so interested in islam, anyway?

why are you so interested in islam, anyway?

I dont know, here's a wild guess

- It's a religion/politics debate section
- Islam is a religion
- I am debating Islam

well, I suppose that makes sense.

Alright, I've decided to reopen this thread but with some exceptions. I've changed the title of the thread to not be so outright insulting. Second, I've deleted Razz's response to Teoma. I don't want this crap to develop into some cross forum war. Guys, just try to keep the discussion moderate with less harsh insults. Try to respect other people's chosen ways of life. Don't confuse extremism with everyone of a particular religion. Don't forget there were the crusades and the inquisition and even to this day there have been christian extremists bombing abortion clinics. A handful of nutbags to speak for everyone.


Rev.

It's a little different.

I'm not trying to force my non-belief on anyone else (unlike them). The only thing I'm fighting for is for the fairy-tale believers to keep their religion to themselves, and I'll keep my opinions to myself.

However, they don't like to keep it to themselves and as a result it's going to be questioned; and I could care less how offended they become. Heck, if I do offend them then I know I'm doing my job

hmmm what muslim tried forcing his religion on you? You have admitted that you don't know any practicing muslims.
Have you ever heard of a concept called projection? It's a psychological term that means that you criticize that which you fear the most. Would this mean that all of the extremely vocal atheists are actually closet theists and are afraid to admit it?
Offending people is easy...any idiot can do that. Trying to understand where another person is coming from is much harder and a much more enlightening pastime then simply ridiculing what someone else chooses to believe and a much more intellectual pursuit.

Razz, I've undeleted your response to Teoma. Teoma had PM'd me and assured me he was content on continuing the debate and that there were no harsh feelings so I am fine with the discussion from your previous thread continuing here.


Rev.

I really think that is absurd. I mean no disrespect to them, but it is the most messed up religon IMO.

I wonder how many Fatwa's have been called on you Razz haha

The only thing I'm fighting for is for the fairy-tale believers to keep their religion to themselves, and I'll keep my opinions to myself.

Yeah right, and you've proved the above comment by going to an islamic site to debate their religion?? It's clear they didn't come to you but you went to them. And judging by your posts on that forum your claims of keeping your opinions to yourself is pure :icon_bs:


Rev.

OK well if anyone wants to know anything about Islam and can phrase their questions in a respectful way, I will be glad to answer them if I know the answer or I will try to find out the answer for you if I can. I have to make one comment though, I am not a scholar of Islam. In fact, I've only been a muslim for 2 1/2 years.
Insha allah I will be able to deal with your questions properly.

OK well if anyone wants to know anything about Islam and can phrase their questions in a respectful way, I will be glad to answer them if I know the answer or I will try to find out the answer for you if I can. I have to make one comment though, I am not a scholar of Islam. In fact, I've only been a muslim for 2 1/2 years.
Insha allah I will be able to deal with your questions properly.

Thanks for answering the questions Teoma...it's sort of funny, first you messaged Rev and told him it was perfectly legitimate, now you're saying it was too offensive.

It's sort of funny too, I didn't launch an insult towards you but got these responses from you, for example, when I asked about Muhammed and his engagement to a 6 year old girl:
Do trolls all get their material from the same sources?

Or when I asked if your morals came strictly from the Quran, you said:
good, you caught that one...maybe you do have more then a double digit IQ

Amazing! :) - Notice how I didn't complain when you said those?

Here's an idea, go back to the hole you crawled on that Ummah forum and preach to other Muslims why homosexuality is a disease (as if religious belief is not) and why women must cover themselves because of horny Arab men.

And once again, I thank you for answering my replies on the previous page, you represented Islam well...

Thanks for answering the questions Teoma...it's sort of funny, first you messaged Rev and told him it was perfectly legitimate, now you're saying it was too offensive.

actually, it was merely an open invitation to anyone else on the board and not a commentary on you

It's sort of funny too, I didn't launch an insult towards you but got these responses from you, for example, when I asked about Muhammed and his engagement to a 6 year old girl:

naww, my point is that these questions come straight from such sources as answering Islam which is actually an evangelical christian website that is full of twisted distortions of Islam. They are mirrored all over the web on other anti-Islamic websites. I just get tired of every moron that comes along figuring that they have just discovered the ultimate thing that shows that the Prophet(SAW) was some kind of twisted individual when the truth is that in Canada, until 1920, the legal age for a girl to get married was 12 and before 1880 there was absolutely no laws on the books and child brides were quite common. The US mirrors this situation too.


Or when I asked if your morals came strictly from the Quran, you said:

ummm yeah...that was a compliment...maybe I was wrong when I said that you might have more then a double digit IQ...


Amazing! :) - Notice how I didn't complain when you said those?

Here's an idea, go back to the hole you crawled on that Ummah forum and preach to other Muslims why homosexuality is a disease (as if religious belief is not) and why women must cover themselves because of horny Arab men.

And once again, I thank you for answering my replies on the previous page, you represented Islam well...

naww that's quite all right...hopefully I will be able to stick around and answer some real questions where people don't figure that they already know the answer.
Now my offer still stands, if anyone has any questions about Islam, I will be glad to do my best to answer them

In that case, since it's all cleared up, I have some (non-conflicting, at least for now) questions on Islam. I know many of the answers, I just want to add to it:

1) How did Islam spread to begin with? I know it wasn't only with Daw'wah.

2) Why didn't the Prophet legitimize a leader which currently leads to the Sunni-Shia conflict?

3) What do you think of Dr. Zakar Naik? And why doesn't he debate any of the mainstream Atheists? (ie: Hitchens, Dawkins, etc)

4) Why are you so vehemently against homosexuality? Is it based on religion, or evidence?

&

5) Does the Quran contain any proof? I understand that a faith is just that...'faith' - but is it based on any evidence and what separates it from the Bible and Talmud.

In that case, since it's all cleared up, I have some (non-conflicting, at least for now) questions on Islam. I know many of the answers, I just want to add to it:

OK lets give this a spin then...

1) How did Islam spread to begin with? I know it wasn't only with Daw'wah.

ahhh K...so you want a history lesson then. Yes the Islamic empire spread quickly in the first century of Islam. For perspective, you have to understand the Mecca was an important hub for trade and commerce between Europe and the lands to the east. The first city to fall to Islam was Mecca and it fell without the sweep of a single blade. The cities residents simply opened the city gates and the muslims walked in and took over.
This change in power was disconcerting to the tribes and nations that depended on Mecca and many went to war against the muslims. When the muslims conquered a city or a tribe they were given 3 options:
1) convert to Islam and pay Zakkat(a tax to the caliphate which was then used as a social safety net for the old and the infirm and to care for orphans and those in need. As far as I know, this is the first example of a welfare system in the world.
2) pledge allegiance to the Islamic state and retain their faith and pay Jizyah, an alternative tax that ensured them the right to live in a muslim state. This tax was a lesser rate then what muslims payed and their status as non muslims exempted them from military service. There are still Jewish enclaves living under this system in Iran and they refuse to leave.
3) if neither of these conditions were acceptable then they were given a quick and humane death but it was the choice of the individual.
Many cities simply swung open the gates of the city in order to be free of the reigns of Rome

As the Islamic empire spread, more powerful people became worried, especially when their own citizens began to convert to Islam. This was the case in Spain and when the muslims marched on Spain. Muslim converts were being persecuted by the rulers of the country and in Islam, it's a sacred duty to relieve the suffering of the oppressed so they marched on Spain. Here agin, they met only token resistance and the "invaders" were welcomed into the cities. It wasn't until the Roman empire launched it's own army that the muslims were stopped.

2) Why didn't the Prophet legitimize a leader which currently leads to the Sunni-Shia conflict?

The Prophet(SAW) warned us that on the judgement day, there would be 71 sects of Jews, 72 sects of Christians and 73 sects of Islam and that people from each group would enter Jannah(heaven) This fragmentation of the followers of Islam is the equivalent of culling the herd. If someone follows, say the Hanafi Madhab, because it is the easiest, then he will be condemned to hell but if he followed it because in his heart of hearts, he believed it to be the best and closest to the will of Allah then he will be granted a place in Paradise.

3) What do you think of Dr. Zakar Naik? And why doesn't he debate any of the mainstream Atheists? (ie: Hitchens, Dawkins, etc)

Dr Naik is a very wise man but he is still just a man and that makes him fallible. As for why he doesn't speak to so and so, I have no idea. I can't answer for him.

4) Why are you so vehemently against homosexuality? Is it based on religion, or evidence?

Am I? Gee...I didn't realize that I was. :confused:
The fact of the matter is that I, and I can only speak for myself, could care less if someone is gay. It doesn't affect me in any way if someone is gay unless they try hitting on me. I do not live in an Islamic society and there is no Caliphate so Shariah laws do not apply. I have enough to worry about in making sure that I have my ducks in a row to make it into Jannah to worry about if someone is packing your fudge.
Even if the Caliphate did exist and Sharia law could be implemented it would take the witness of 4 men to convict someone of homosexuality so unless the guy is putting on shows for his neighbours, it remains a matter between him and Allah.
Islam has a policy very similiar to the army...don't ask, don't tell and it has been that way for centuries. The modern day executions based on a twisted version of Shariah law are wrong and the judges, leaders and the men that carry out those executions will be judged accordingly on judgement day.
Sharia is this spector that the religious right and the conservatives show as this horrific thing but the truth is that it cannot be implemented properly without a righteous leader of the Caliphate to see that it is applied properly.




5) Does the Quran contain any proof? I understand that a faith is just that...'faith' - but is it based on any evidence and what separates it from the Bible and Talmud.

There are 3 Torahs, multiple bibles and only one Quran that hasn't had a word changed in it since the day it was revealed. That is what I would call a reliable source.
As for proof, there you go again...I could show you websites that claim to show knowledge in the Quran of scientific things that were unknown in the day that it was written but the truth is that IMHO most of these claims are desperate attempts to make things fit. All that I can say is that when I read the Qu'ran, it spoke to me in a way that the bible and the old testament never did.

Am I? Gee...I didn't realize that I was. :confused:
The fact of the matter is that I, and I can only speak for myself, could care less if someone is gay. It doesn't affect me in any way if someone is gay unless they try hitting on me. I do not live in an Islamic society and there is no Caliphate so Shariah laws do not apply. I have enough to worry about in making sure that I have my ducks in a row to make it into Jannah to worry about if someone is packing your fudge.
Even if the Caliphate did exist and Sharia law could be implemented it would take the witness of 4 men to convict someone of homosexuality so unless the guy is putting on shows for his neighbours, it remains a matter between him and Allah.

My question, why does it matter? You've openly stated on your forum:

Male homosexuals' brains have been disected after death and there are definate abnormalities in the structure of the brains that do not show up in hetero mens' brains. The brains of confirmed homosexuals are structured more like a woman's then a hetero man's and this is the basis of the nature argument.

Which is just a bull**** statement. Which science are you basing that on???? Could you show me the overwhelming proof that homosexuals are born with abnormalities in their brain???

As for proof, there you go again...I could show you websites that claim to show knowledge in the Quran of scientific things that were unknown in the day that it was written but the truth is that IMHO most of these claims are desperate attempts to make things fit. All that I can say is that when I read the Qu'ran, it spoke to me in a way that the bible and the old testament never did.


Exactly, "most of these claims are desperate attempts to make things fit" - that's the most logical thing you've ever said.

Which brings me to another point, why don't the Muslims who claim of the Qu'rans scientific miracles come out and predict future scientific discoveries that have not yet been found? If the Quran contains the science as they claim they do then they should be outspoken in several untested, untried scientific claims.

By the way, speaking of science, do you believe in evolution?

And when you're done, go back to the previous page and answer the questions you skipped last time, especially the Q&A from the Islamic website regarding married couples and sex.

My question, why does it matter? You've openly stated on your forum:



Which is just a bull**** statement. Which science are you basing that on???? Could you show me the overwhelming proof that homosexuals are born with abnormalities in their brain???

ummm weren't we warned about bringing in stuff from the other forum? I will entertain this one but don't do it again.
http :// www .the atlantic. com/doc/199706 /homosexuality-biology/2
*note* I had to put spaces in there because the filters here won't allow me to post URL's



Exactly, "most of these claims are desperate attempts to make things fit" - that's the most logical thing you've ever said.

Which brings me to another point, why don't the Muslims who claim of the Qu'rans scientific miracles come out and predict future scientific discoveries that have not yet been found? If the Quran contains the science as they claim they do then they should be outspoken in several untested, untried scientific claims.

Like I said before, I don't believe in it so how can I comment?

By the way, speaking of science, do you believe in evolution?

actually I believe that it can fit in the framework of Islam. The Quran says that all Allah has to do is say "be" and it is but it doesn't state a timeframe

And when you're done, go back to the previous page and answer the questions you skipped last time, especially the Q&A from the Islamic website regarding married couples and sex.

I didn't even bother to click on those links. The danger with online fatwas is that you don't know the madhab or the sect of the Sheikh or scholar that is answering the questions. Ask 2 muslims about most subjects and you will get 2 different answers.

On that note, I have to wish you goodnight for now because I have to be up in the morning for work

ummm weren't we warned about bringing in stuff from the other forum? I will entertain this one but don't do it again.

Bringing other problems from forums onto here was the issue. If I had written a book, for example, and you took quotes from there and used them against me here...would there be a problem? Of course not, unless there was something to hide?

http://www.the atlantic.com/doc/199706/homosexuality-biology/2
*note* I had to put spaces in there because the filters here won't allow me to post URL's

That's your scientific proof? You know, I could also entertain you by posting pseduscientific articles by people who believe the Earth is flat. Not to mention, the author isn't a scientist to begin with and I havent seen any establish scientific journals or societies take this article to be sincere. And by the way, an older man like yourself should already know that anyone can write anything on the internet, or in a magazine, and claim it to be science...you know that, right?

Nonetheless, one thing from the article caught my attention and that was the author, Chandler Burr. In case you missed it, here's a quote from his wikipedia:

In 1996 The Weekly Standard published Burr's article Why Conservatives Should Embrace the Gay Gene. It argued that scientific research that in Burr's view demonstrated that sexual orientation is biologically determined supports a conservative view of human nature.

Doesn't this just contradict the "homosexual is a choice" garbage that religions spew out? And what proof does it have that it's an abnormality? It seems that "being different" is considered abnormal, but that's like saying people who are left-handed are abnormal...which makes no sense.

actually I believe that it can fit in the framework of Islam. The Quran says that all Allah has to do is say "be" and it is but it doesn't state a timeframe

Don't you believe the story of Adam & Eve? How would that coincide with evolution?

I didn't even bother to click on those links. The danger with online fatwas is that you don't know the madhab or the sect of the Sheikh or scholar that is answering the questions. Ask 2 muslims about most subjects and you will get 2 different answers.

Well, do you agree with them or not? It seems those fatwah's are heavily backed up. As a matter of fact, this is directly from the website's "About Us" webpage:

All questions and answers on this site have been prepared, approved, revised, edited, amended or annotated by Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al-Munajjid, the supervisor of this site.

With the spread of Islam world-wide walillah il-hamd and its diffusion into the internet, some sites have been published claiming to serve Muslims and to speak in the name of Islam. However, not all of these sites, which discuss issues relevant to Islam, present accurate and reliable information based on the true beliefs and practices of the Prophet (peace & blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions. Thus, there is a need to increase the number of sites providing resources based on these authentic teachings. It is hoped that this site will be among them.

So, based on this question that was asked: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597

Would you agree or disagree with the answer, and why?

A man is allowed multiple wives, but I bet a woman isnt allowed multiple husbands
Because of course, there are more women with men, we cant let any women be alone, lets give more women to men....

Yes, Islam is disgustingly absurd

A man is allowed multiple wives, but I bet a woman isnt allowed multiple husbands
Because of course, there are more women with men, we cant let any women be alone, lets give more women to men....


Well the whole wives thing makes sense if you think about it. Well not exactly "wives" but more like mates.

If we were living in the wild playing with sand what the f*ck would a woman need several men for? hogging the man power??? A woman can only have 1 child at a time.

1 man can have like 10 women pregnant if he is able to feed them all when the babies are born.

It's all about survival of the species.

But yeah today in the modern world equality is key and all that male dominance sh*t can burn.

hey razz, man i have a question. NO DISRESPECT but why are you going around questioning the religons of people? Trying to make people not believe? Whats with this need to destory random religons, just cause you dont believe?

again man, no disrespect :icon_hug:

Agree stop hatin let people belive what they want to

Bringing other problems from forums onto here was the issue. If I had written a book, for example, and you took quotes from there and used them against me here...would there be a problem? Of course not, unless there was something to hide?

Fair enough...just wanted to make sure that I knew the ground rules here



That's your scientific proof? You know, I could also entertain you by posting pseduscientific articles by people who believe the Earth is flat. Not to mention, the author isn't a scientist to begin with and I havent seen any establish scientific journals or societies take this article to be sincere. And by the way, an older man like yourself should already know that anyone can write anything on the internet, or in a magazine, and claim it to be science...you know that, right?

Nonetheless, one thing from the article caught my attention and that was the author, Chandler Burr. In case you missed it, here's a quote from his wikipedia:



Doesn't this just contradict the "homosexual is a choice" garbage that religions spew out? And what proof does it have that it's an abnormality? It seems that "being different" is considered abnormal, but that's like saying people who are left-handed are abnormal...which makes no sense.

that article is merely a summary of someone else's work. Check the references and the names in the article. It's not conclusive proof because sample groups were small but it is suggestive that something is going on. When you can find a structure in the brain that is different in homosexual men from hetero men it suggests that there is a pattern.



Don't you believe the story of Adam & Eve? How would that coincide with evolution?

The first modern woman and man. Evolution is all about spontaneous mutations and genetics has proven that all humans alive today are descended from a single male that passed his mutation on to his offspring. They survived and have passed it onto every human alive today.



Well, do you agree with them or not? It seems those fatwah's are heavily backed up. As a matter of fact, this is directly from the website's "About Us" webpage:



So, based on this question that was asked: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/33597

Would you agree or disagree with the answer, and why?

OK first lets clarify something, it is a man's right to be intimate with his wife and she cannot deny him but at the same time, she has rights too to demand the same from him. This article did not declare that because that wasn't the question that was asked.
Secondly, this is not about an isolated case...this is where the woman refuses time and time again and not just once. It's unreasonable for a man to admonish her, tap her with a miswak and refuse to give her clothes and shelter over one night with a headache.
Your confusion on this is understandeable because these rulings and hadeeths are translated from arabic and there is indeed a loss in the translation.
Besides, what self respecting man would want to be taking a ride on a dead fish? That's just masturbation by proxy

The one ruling also says that if the woman doesn't want to sleep with her husband, she is free to seek a divorce and allow them both to move on. What is the point of her sponging off a man for years if she isn't even willing to put out from time to time? Would you want to put up with this situation?
Now these rulings are tossed right out the window if there is a legitimate reason why she doesn't want to sleep with her husband such as trauma from childhood abuse or it would cause her physical pain or harm as in the cases of some illnesses like PID or endometriosis.

Now Razz, I have a question for you. In the thread that was opened with the mods, you were talking about this board and you said, Fact is this AbuMubarak, that same website was infiltrated with Christians when I decided to speak out against religion, now many of them are either agnostic or atheist.

I was just wondering if I could see a show of hands of your converts?
Merging doublepost
Well the whole wives thing makes sense if you think about it. Well not exactly "wives" but more like mates.

If we were living in the wild playing with sand what the f*ck would a woman need several men for? hogging the man power??? A woman can only have 1 child at a time.

1 man can have like 10 women pregnant if he is able to feed them all when the babies are born.

It's all about survival of the species.

But yeah today in the modern world equality is key and all that male dominance sh*t can burn.


well the concept that most non muslims have of polygyny is a little misconstrued. A woman can refuse to marry any man and no one can force her to get married to anyone so any woman in a plural marriage is there by her own consent and previous wives have to give their consent to the husband marrying another woman. That said, the economic reality of maintaining seperate households(each wife must have her own house) rules it out for the vast majority of men. There is also a limit of 4 wives per man and slavery is no longer practiced by muslims so even if you were King Abdullah, you are still limited to 4 women.
It's all out in the open and it's all agreed upon by all parties involved so how is that male dominance?

that article is merely a summary of someone else's work. Check the references and the names in the article. It's not conclusive proof because sample groups were small but it is suggestive that something is going on. When you can find a structure in the brain that is different in homosexual men from hetero men it suggests that there is a pattern.

yes, but you said "abnormality" as if it's a disease or something...and even if the scientific community (not a man writing an article) do find a so-called 'gay gene' - wouldnt that just prove that people are born gay and don't choose? In other words, why change because a God wants you to?

The first modern woman and man. Evolution is all about spontaneous mutations and genetics has proven that all humans alive today are descended from a single male that passed his mutation on to his offspring. They survived and have passed it onto every human alive today.

hahahhahahahahahahahah

Sorry, that was hilarious, I don't mean to be condescending but you know absolutely nothing about evolution.

How is it possibly that only two humans were to evolve and THEN started from there? That IS NOT how evolution works at all! To think we evolved into adam, and to an eve, and then began to produce offspring from there is absolutely ludicrous.

I give you credit for believing in evolution, but the way you believe it is equivalent to believing gravity in the form of God pushing us down.


OK first lets clarify something, it is a man's right to be intimate with his wife and she cannot deny him but at the same time, she has rights too to demand the same from him. This article did not declare that because that wasn't the question that was asked.

My question: "GIVE me a right that a woman has but the man does not!"

In that answer, you just admitted that the woman must give her husband sex as he chooses but, where is the verse of the woman getting the same rights? I can't believe people buy into this...

Secondly, this is not about an isolated case...this is where the woman refuses time and time again and not just once. It's unreasonable for a man to admonish her, tap her with a miswak and refuse to give her clothes and shelter over one night with a headache.
Your confusion on this is understandeable because these rulings and hadeeths are translated from arabic and there is indeed a loss in the translation.
Besides, what self respecting man would want to be taking a ride on a dead fish? That's just masturbation by proxy

Your explanation makes NO sense

So first you admonish her, separate beds, etc etc, and then finally, if THINGS GET REALLY BAD, you tap her on the shoulder with a stick?

Where does it say tap anyway? It says BEAT, adrub means BEAT

The one ruling also says that if the woman doesn't want to sleep with her husband, she is free to seek a divorce and allow them both to move on. What is the point of her sponging off a man for years if she isn't even willing to put out from time to time? Would you want to put up with this situation?
Now these rulings are tossed right out the window if there is a legitimate reason why she doesn't want to sleep with her husband such as trauma from childhood abuse or it would cause her physical pain or harm as in the cases of some illnesses like PID or endometriosis.

That's it? She can just divorce? You said in the beginning that men and women were created equal, seems the men have every right the women has + more. I still fail to see a right that a woman has over the man...

Now Razz, I have a question for you. In the thread that was opened with the mods, you were talking about this board and you said,

I was just wondering if I could see a show of hands of your converts?

Several of them are through private messages, Shortys_Kid is an example, but...what does this have to do with the debate?

It's all out in the open and it's all agreed upon by all parties involved so how is that male dominance?

Because ONLY THE MAN has the right to become a polygamist, not a woman

Merging doublepost

Even if the Caliphate did exist and Sharia law could be implemented it would take the witness of 4 men to convict someone of homosexuality so unless the guy is putting on shows for his neighbours, it remains a matter between him and Allah.

Had to add something here, what if someone were to take a picture of a two gay men kissing and shows it to the judge? What if they're at a theme park and a group see's them kiss? Wouldn't that be enough evidence to prove they're gay?

Should THEY be executed for that???

yes, but you said "abnormality" as if it's a disease or something...and even if the scientific community (not a man writing an article) do find a so-called 'gay gene' - wouldnt that just prove that people are born gay and don't choose? In other words, why change because a God wants you to?

people are born with congenital defects all the time. The world applauds them if they fight to overcome their defect and live a normal life. Breing attracted to the same sex is not a crime in Islam...acting on it is.



hahahhahahahahahahahah

Sorry, that was hilarious, I don't mean to be condescending but you know absolutely nothing about evolution.

How is it possibly that only two humans were to evolve and THEN started from there? That IS NOT how evolution works at all! To think we evolved into adam, and to an eve, and then began to produce offspring from there is absolutely ludicrous.

I give you credit for believing in evolution, but the way you believe it is equivalent to believing gravity in the form of God pushing us down.

Actually, if you read what I said, I said that we are all descended from a single male that had a dominant gene mutation. His wife would not need to share that mutation for it to be passed onto his children.




My question: "GIVE me a right that a woman has but the man does not!"

a wife has the right to demand that her husband support her ie she doesn't have to work outside the home unless she chooses too. No man in Islam has the right to demand his wife work and support him.

In that answer, you just admitted that the woman must give her husband sex as he chooses but, where is the verse of the woman getting the same rights? I can't believe people buy into this...

did you fail reading comprehension? I said that there are reasons why a woman can refuse sex but at the same time, it's not reasonable to expect a man or woman to stay in a sexless marriage. If the man refuses to have sex with his wife then she is entitled to kept in a handsome manner ie she lives the life of a queen or he divorces her in which case there are other reperations to be made because the judge would rule against him.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/9021/rights%20of%20a%20wife



Your explanation makes NO sense

So first you admonish her, separate beds, etc etc, and then finally, if THINGS GET REALLY BAD, you tap her on the shoulder with a stick?

Where does it say tap anyway? It says BEAT, adrub means BEAT

oh, so you are a scholar of 7th century arabic are you? Adrub can also be interpreted as giving a child a scoot in the behind. It leaves no mark and does not cause pain but lets the person receiving it know that something has happened. The ruling in Islamic juris prudence is that it is not permissable for any muslim to strike another muslim in anger in the face, breasts or genitals. Any blow cannot leave a mark or break the skin. How severe of a beating could it be if it lives up to that criteria?
The only time that anything more severe can be given by one muslim to another legally, under Sharia, is if it is ordered by an Islamic court.



That's it? She can just divorce? You said in the beginning that men and women were created equal, seems the men have every right the women has + more. I still fail to see a right that a woman has over the man...

I said the rights were different but equal



Several of them are through private messages, Shortys_Kid is an example, but...what does this have to do with the debate?

it goes to your credibility



Because ONLY THE MAN has the right to become a polygamist, not a woman

from an evolutionary POV this should be obvious

Merging doublepost



Had to add something here, what if someone were to take a picture of a two gay men kissing and shows it to the judge? What if they're at a theme park and a group see's them kiss? Wouldn't that be enough evidence to prove they're gay?

Should THEY be executed for that???

No...arab men kiss all the time and hold hands.

You seem stuck on two things...women's rights and gays...are these the only things that you can find fault with in Islam?

I live in Turkey and most of the people here is Muslim. And Im too. I just want to say something to u. If u really wanna learn about Islam, just found a english version of Qu'ran and read it. You'll find ur answers. And most of these answers are comes from arabic culture. They try to make arabic culture look like Islam but it isnt. Just read the Qu'ran. You'll understand. :)

people are born with congenital defects all the time. The world applauds them if they fight to overcome their defect and live a normal life. Breing attracted to the same sex is not a crime in Islam...acting on it is.

Why do you call it a "defect" ? I personally think it's a defect to believe in a sadistic God with a pedophile as a prophet, but I don't claim to be a scientist and assert it as a defect.

And why is it so common amongst animals? Why has it been seen in several other species and mammals?

Actually, if you read what I said, I said that we are all descended from a single male that had a dominant gene mutation. His wife would not need to share that mutation for it to be passed onto his children.

But the story of Adam & Eve claims to be the first human organisms to exist...which is absolutely ridiculous and impossible to occur in evolution, especially at the same time.

a wife has the right to demand that her husband support her ie she doesn't have to work outside the home unless she chooses too. No man in Islam has the right to demand his wife work and support him.

What right does she have over the husband? For example, can the woman demand sex? Hit her husband? etc...as the husband can?

did you fail reading comprehension? I said that there are reasons why a woman can refuse sex but at the same time, it's not reasonable to expect a man or woman to stay in a sexless marriage. If the man refuses to have sex with his wife then she is entitled to kept in a handsome manner ie she lives the life of a queen or he divorces her in which case there are other reperations to be made because the judge would rule against him.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/9021/rights%20of%20a%20wife

Are you an idiot?

Where did you get sexless marriage from? We're talking about "demanding sex" - sex is suppose to be mutual, not demanded by what one sadistic God believes as the dominant sex.

oh, so you are a scholar of 7th century arabic are you? Adrub can also be interpreted as giving a child a scoot in the behind. It leaves no mark and does not cause pain but lets the person receiving it know that something has happened. The ruling in Islamic juris prudence is that it is not permissable for any muslim to strike another muslim in anger in the face, breasts or genitals. Any blow cannot leave a mark or break the skin. How severe of a beating could it be if it lives up to that criteria?
The only time that anything more severe can be given by one muslim to another legally, under Sharia, is if it is ordered by an Islamic court.

Where is the logic in tapping her after banishing her and threatening her? This is absolutely absurd to believe...

And by the way, why do we interpret it as tapping? Again, why should the husband EVEN HAVE THE RIGHT to touch his wife?

I said the rights were different but equal

Again, what's a right that a woman has over the man?

No...arab men kiss all the time and hold hands.

Arab men are homosexuals now?

You seem stuck on two things...women's rights and gays...are these the only things that you can find fault with in Islam?

No, they're two starting points to which you constantly dance over...I wont let them go until I'm satisfied.

of course islam is absurd. most religions are.

dont mean muslims are bad people, though.